Ardnamurchan,Argyll Livingstons

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Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2770
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Ardnamurchan,Argyll Livingstons

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Malcolm,

This article has some excellent old OS maps detailing Ormsaigmore, Ardnamurchan where your ancestor Duncan Livingston and family was living at the time of 1841 Census.

http://kilchoan.blogspot.ca/p/ormsaigmore.html

O.S. Map 1872 with detailed map of Ormsaigmore, Ardnamurchan National Library of Scotland
According to the 1841 Scottish Census your ancestor Duncan Livingston a shepherd was located at Ormsaigmore with his family including his son your ancestor Allan Livingston

http://maps.nls.uk/view/74427306

Duncan Livingston residence in Ormsegmore (Ormsaigmore) Ardnamurchan in the 1841 Scottish Census
1.Duncan Livingston age 30 Shepherd
Mary Livingston age 30
Allan Livingston age 12 (your ancestor)
Archibald Livingston age 10
Peggy Livingston age 8
Mary Livingston age 6
Anne Livingston age 4
Catharine Livingston age 2

It looks however like Ormsaigmore is just one of a number of settlements in Ardnamurchan that Duncan and the family had lived at since the 1820's. The early baptism records of the children of Duncan in the 1820's suggest that Duncan was at Corevullin and a few other settlements in Ardnamurchan.
And sometime before the 1851 Census, Duncan and family moved out of Ormsaigmore, Ardnmurchan to a croft with 3 acres at Kilmallie Parish, Argyll. In 1861 DUncan and family still at Kilmallie Croft no. 6 Trislaig (Treslaig) near Fort William, Inverness-shire.

regards,

Donald
Canadian Livingstone
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Re: Ardnamurchan,Argyll Livingstons

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Malcolm,

I have set up this new postings so that anyone with Ardnamurchan Livingston ancestry might hopefully see it when do a search and perhaps visit our forum in the future.
I noticed in one of my earlier messages I stated that your ancestor Duncan Livingston was 75 at the time of his death in 1893 in Oban, Argyll at his daughter Mary's residence. I could not read the number written but I think she meant it to be 85. Mary Livingston was the informant of her father's death and 85 makes sense as in the 1891 Census information from two years years earlier Mary stated that her widowed father was 83 years of age.

At the time of 1891 census widower DUncan Livingston age recorded as 83 born in Ardnamurchan is living with daughter Mary at her residence at 14 Airds Crescent in Oban, Kilmore and Kilbride Parish, Argyll. According to his death entry two years later Duncan Livingston retired farmer age 85 (looks like 95 in entry) at 14 Airds Crescent, Oban in Kilmore and Kilbride, Argyll, husband of the late Mary McMillan and son of he deceased John Livingston and Catharine McIntyre.

If Duncan was infact recorded as being 85 by his daughter Mary at the time of his death is possible he was actually born around 1808 rather than 1811. The info from the 1841 and 1881 census suggest he was born abt. 1811 but it also could be incorrect. I have not found Duncan's birth record.

regards,

Donald
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2770
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Ardnamurchan,Argyll Livingstons

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Malcolm

Just recapping some of your early info regarding your Ardnamurchan Livingston family with my own revised thinking on your Livingston ancestral line and its early connections to Glenmore, Ardnamurchan with Duncan being born in 1806 in Glenmore.

I did not notice earlier the birth record of Duncan Livingston which states that "Duncan Livingstone a son to John Livingstone, Katharine MacIntyre (of) Glenmore". The fact that Duncan Livingstone was born at Glenmore to John Livingston and Katharine MacIntyre makes it quite possible that your Livingston family were quite possibly related to the other Glenmore Livingston of ANgus Livingston of Glenmore and his son Hugh Livingston who married Catharine McDiarmid. What is also interesting about the birth record of Duncan is that is states he was born on Dec. 6, 1806 which challenges somewhat my earlier notion based on the 1841 and 1881 Census that he was born abt. 1811 or for that matter abt. 1808 which the 1891 and his death 1893 death info I think suggest. His 1893 death record though does without doubt verify that his parents were John Livingston and Catharine McIntyre which I think you were wondering about earlier. Sorry that I only noticed that birth record this morning. Guess I did look for a Duncan with the last name spelled "Livingstone" when was looking before. That is great that your earliest Livingston family record links your Ardnamurchan Livingston also to Glenmore.

All the better if we can find a Livingstone cousin of yours to participate in the Maclea Livingstone Society DNA project but if we cant then at least from the test that has already been done several years ago on another likely Glenmore Livingston descendant as mentioned we do have some idea that the Glenmore Livingstons are distantly related to neighbouring Mull and Morvern Livingstons which makes sense given their proximity to one another in Western Argyllshire.

John Livingston and Catharine McIntyre of Ardnamurchan, Argyll and known children
"My Duncans birth registration does exist, its in the Arnamurchan and Strontium and Sunart records GROS 505/00 0010 0018. You are right that there appear to be no other birth registrations for children of John and Catherine McIntyre however i have found the following death registrations for 3 other children.

1867 Ardnamurchan Ann Livingston(aged 74 b 1793) parents John Livingston and Catherine McIntyre
1882 Ardnamurchan John Livingston(aged 86 b 1796) parents John Livingston and Catherine McIntyre
1877 Ardnamurchan Donald Livingston(aged 78 b 1799) parents John Livingston and Catherine McIntyre"

(1893 Kilmore and Kilbride, Duncan Livingston age 85 b.1808 parents John LIvingston and Catharine McIntyre)

(1891 Census informant likely daughter Mary or Duncan himself suggests he was born in 1808 in Ardnamurchan but the 1841 and 1881 census suggest he was born abt. 1811.)
Birth record from Ardnamurchan Parish states that Duncan Livingstone son of John Livingstone and Katharine MacIntyre was born December 6, 1806 which challenges 1808 or 1811.) Donald

Children of Duncan Livingston and Mary McMillan
"I know Duncan and Mary McMillan were married in 1825 and were working as servants at Inversanda. Allan was their first born probably around circa 1827. The 1841 census said Allan was 12 but it said his brother Archibald was 10 and I know his birth was 9th November 1829 so Allan must have been earlier. It is clear Allan was born in Argyllshire and I wonder if he was born at Kilmalieu which is the next village along Loch Linnhe from Inversanda ? "

"Duncans children were born as follows, all records found in Scotlands people

Archibald Coiremhulin Ardnamurchan 9th Nov 1829
Margaret Corrievulin Ardnamurchan 12th April 1832
Mary Skinnid, Arnamurchan 19th May 1834
Margery Skinnid, Ardnamurchan 11th April 1836
Catherine Orsaigmore , Ardnamurchan 9th Feb 1839
Mary Orsaigmore Ardnamurchan 19th Dec 1841
Anne Glening Acharacle 14th May 1845
Christian Trislaig , Kilmallie 01Jan 1850 "
Canadian Livingstone
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Re: Ardnamurchan,Argyll Livingstons

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Malcolm

Here is good article on Ardnamurchan

http://wikishire.co.uk/wiki/Ardnamurchan

Ardnamurchan info that includes a detailed black and white map of Clachan land holdings and settlements as they were circa 1806 Ardnamurchan Parish
http://kilchoan.blogspot.ca/p/clachans- ... rofts.html
note location of Glenmore and other settlements where your Livingstons lived in Ardnamurchan Parish on this map

O.S. Map 1872 of Ardnamurchan with Glenmore and Glenmore Bay National Library of Scotland
http://maps.nls.uk/view/74427307
regards,

Donald
Cameron Livingstone
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Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2016 1:22 am

Re: Ardnamurchan,Argyll Livingstons

Post by Cameron Livingstone »

Hi Donald

Thanks for your two posts of the16thSeptember.

Since my last posting I have been busy trying to complete the family history of the Ardnamurchan Livingstones. It has left me with some questions that I thought you might be able to help me with.

On the basis largely of death certificates I have established that John Livingston and Katherine McIntyre had 4 children, it would appear from subsequent census info they were all born in Ardnamurchan. There are no parish records of the births for 3 of the children or John and Katherines wedding. One of the children is my Great Great Grandfather Duncan Livingston, his birth is recorded in 1807 in Ardnamurchan and Strontian when they were residing at Glenmore. He was married in 1826, whilst working at Inversanda as a servant. I can tell from his children's birth records that he lived in the Kilchoan area during the 1820's, 1830's and 1840's. He and his family moved to Trislaig for the 1850's, 1860's , 1870's and 1880‘s. He moved to live with his daughter Mary at Airds Cresent , Oban by 1991 where you discovered for me that he died in 1893. Mary had married a Donald Livingston , according to their wedding registration a second cousin, which I will come back to.

Duncan's siblings were Anne who lived in the Ormsaigbeg area all her life and died an unmarried Pauper. He had two brothers , John who also lived his whole life in Orsaigmore , he married a Mary McKenzie and died in 1882. The second brother was Donald who married a Flora McPhee in 1832 in Acharacle. They lived in Ardslignish, Camusban and Ormsaigbeg where both died.

Donald had 5 children born in the 1830's and 40's in Ormsaigbeg, Acharacle (Aharacle?). One of these was Allan born in 1833. In 1864 he married a Catherine Lamont in Kilchoan . They had 7 children born in the 60's, 70's and 80's. They married and initially lived in Ardnamurchan but then moved to Oban via Inverary where they lived in 1881 at Lorne Crescent.

The Donald Livingston (Junior) who Mary married was the son of Janet Livingstone nee Cameron. It would appear she married another Donald Livingston (Senior) when she lived in Strontian and he lived in Refollain ( Rhi a phollain) . Donald (Senior) and Janet also married in 1832 and had 2 children in the Acharacle area John and Duncan born in the 1830's. I can't find a birth record for Donald Junior but later records would indicate he was born in the mid 1820's and certainly before Janet married. Does this indicate he had a different father or that he was born to Donald Senior out of wedlock ? His death certificate stated his parent as Donald (senior )and Janet. Janet eventually turns up in Carluke with Donald (Junior) who is an Ironstone Miner in 1851 . I can find no records of Donald (senior) other than his wedding and children's births in Aharacle. Janet dies in Carluke in 1865 as Janet Jackson having apparently married again late in life. The witness is her son Donald (Junior). Donald Junior dies in Oban in 1873. The witness to his death is Allan Livingstone , and helpfully the certificate shows him as his brother living at Lorne Terrace. This is of course Donald and Floras son from Ormsaigbeg . Allan's death certificate in 1909 confirms his mother and father as Donald and Flora and his wife as Catherine Lamont. The witness is his daughter Jessie Beattie nee Livingstone. As you can see everything cross references with one small exception that, on Allan and Catherine's Wedding reg, his mother is shown as Flora McMillan. This made me think It might be getting two Allan's mixed up but as his death certificate shows Flora McPhee I can only assume the wedding entry was an error or perhaps Floras mothers name was McMillan ?

Here are my queries. How can Donald Junior and Allan be brothers when they appear to have different parents ? The only solutions I can come up with are
1. Janet Cameron got pregnant by the Ormsaigbeg Donald before marrying the Refollin Donald ?

2. The Refollin Donald and the Ormsaigbeg Donald are the same person and he was a bigamist ? This seems highly unlikely as both 1832 weddings took place within 10 months of each other and the issue of both marriages were happening over an extended period of the 1830's. I also assume that the church in Acharacle and Kilchoan would have been sufficiently aware of each other's parishioners to have picked this up anyway ?

3. The other problem I have is that Donald (Junior ) and Mary said on their wedding registrations they were second cousins. If he is the son of Donald from Ormsabeg who is Duncan's brother then they would actually be first cousins ?

Do you have any views on this convoluted tale and on any of my assumptions/conclusions that might help me ?


Malcolm
Last edited by Cameron Livingstone on Fri Oct 07, 2016 8:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Canadian Livingstone
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Re: Ardnamurchan,Argyll Livingstons

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Malcolm,

That is rather perplexing and certainly frustrating your research efforts. Not sure that I can provide an explanation to this.

regards,

Donald
Cameron Livingstone
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2016 1:22 am

Re: Ardnamurchan,Argyll Livingstons

Post by Cameron Livingstone »

Donald it was only on the off chance, thanks for even reading it ! Sorry about the repeat paras I'm using an unfamiliar computer whilst I'm away.

Malcolm
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2770
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Ardnamurchan,Argyll Livingstons

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Malcolm,
Regarding your earlier question, in the course of doing genealogy research, one does come across family information from time to time indicating that cousins married in centuries past.
No doubt many of us have ancestors who married a cousin distant or more closely related. Something that I was not aware of until recently was that Charles Darwin married his first cousin. I started to read about this and looked like an interesting story that I will have to finish reading when I have a chance. Queen Victoria's youngest son and the son of the ill fated Czar Nicholas of Russia both suffered from a hereditary blood condition thought to have been the result of Royalty marrying closely related cousins in the past.

Marriage of closely related cousins was not uncommon as late as the 19th century until there were concerns expressed about negative effects of inbreeding and legislation was passed making it illegal in many jurisdictions for closely related cousins specifically first cousins to marry. While the public was not well informed on the science of genetics in the 19th century as scientists and doctors are today, it was became clear in the later 19th century that in addition to the moral argument against marrying a first cousin there was some awareness by the 19th century among those in the medical profession of the potential risks of serious birth defects in the offspring of closely related cousins.

I must admit to being really ignorant on this subject but apparently in Canada first cousin marriages are legal and I think also in the United Kingdom and in Europe and in other parts of the World. I think however in the United States at least in some States the marriage of a first cousin may still be prohibited. I don't really have specific info on that.

regards,

Donald
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2770
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Ardnamurchan,Argyll Livingstons

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Malcolm
Thought you might find this interesting. I was looking through my copy of the book published by the Scottish Record Society with the 1716 list of those in Morvern who were had arms or who were suspected of having been involved in the 1715 Rebellion which occurred some 30 years before the 1745 Jacobite Rebellion. I had forgotten that the list included some Macleas residing in Ardnamurchan.
From the 1716 list of Inhabitants of Ardnamurchan some of your likely Maclea kin before the highland clan Maconleas/Macleas throughout Western Argyll completely adopted the name Livingstone by the mid 1700's.

I could not find any Macleas or Maconleas in 1716 in Glenmore or Ormsaigmore recorded on the list but there were some mentioned from some other settlements listed that were apparently in early 18th century Ardnamurchan indicating that there were likely a number of your Maclea or Maconlea kin residing in Ardnamurchan at this time and in the 1600's. There is no way of knowing though when they first arrived in Ardnamurchan, but so far at least the DNA testing of the one Ardnamurchan Livingston descendant in our DNA project suggests a common ancestry with Maclea/Livingstones that resided also in neighbouring Mull and Morvern in the 18th century.

Ardnamurchan 1716 List of Inhabitants (with any information included at the time regarding the possession of arms)
Geall (Camas nan Geall)
Dushlea Mclea
he has a gun of his own
Duncan McLea
he has a durk only of his own

Tornamonic (Tour na Moine)
Donald Mclea servant
he had a sleoleape(?) and Lochaber axe
which left with Invernaheil in Perth and had no other arms (Clearly this Ardnamurchan Mclea had participated in the 1715 Jacobite Rebellion and was quite forthcoming about it.)


regards,

Donald
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