Livingstones in Australia - DNA connection

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Re: Livingstones in Australia - DNA connection

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:28 pm

Hi John,

Kevin's genealogy research discussion was in 2010. I seem to recall he had Prestopans. East Lothian connection as well but I have find my original notes from 2010 on that. Not sure he many matches when he first did the test. I dont know more recently. And of course it could that there was more than one Livingston family origin with those Livingstons that were residing in 18th century East Lothian. That would not surprise me. There are at least 3 main unrelated Livingston family groups that lived in Western Argyllshire that I believe the DNA testing seems to suggest. So two or more Livingstons familiy groups of different ancestral origins not out of the question. I need to take another at Kevin's genealogy info before his ancestors who resided at Prestopans, East Lothian, Scotland. If your cousin turns out not to be a match with Kevin Livington's marker results then it may be simply that his Livingston family linked to PRestopans East lothian is not in fact related to the old Trenant parish East lothian Livingston familiy which the parish info suggests very much your ancestors were a part of.

regards,

Donald
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Re: Livingstones in Australia - DNA connection

Postby Ozlivingstone » Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:41 am

Yes thanks for that. i have learnt so much from your forum in recent days. The yDNA sample also seems to have a strong connect to Ireland as well. Not sure what that might mean. The genetic distance is 4 at the 37 Marker. I have ordered the Big Y and Yfull tests to see what else i can find about the Livingstones.

John
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Re: Livingstones in Australia - DNA connection

Postby Greg Livingston » Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:30 am

John, Welcome to the forum. I am sure that you are beginning to see the value of the information that Donald has been able to pull together over the years. He continually amazes me with what he finds and how he is able to connect everything.
Greg Livingston
Clan Commissioner
Northglenn, Colorado, USA
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Re: Livingstones in Australia - DNA connection

Postby Ozlivingstone » Sat Jun 23, 2018 5:23 am

Yes a great clan resource no doubt :D
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Re: Livingstones in Australia - DNA connection

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Sat Jun 23, 2018 2:41 pm

Hi John,

Thank-you John and Greg. The Clan Maclea Livingstone Society greatly appreciates you dropping by John and sharing your own insights regarding your Livingston family and it's origins. My focus regarding the DNA project has been largely with my own Western Argyllshire roots and in 2006 like you I sponsored a Livingston cousin in the DNA project who as suspected proved to be a match with a group of LIvingstons whose genealogy and parish records info from Scotland verified that they were like my cousin largely of Movern, Mull or other nearby parishes in Western Argyllshire. Over the year working as Clan historian, Livingstons with origins in lowland Scotland and Ireland have made contact with me and began to realize that there were significant number of LIvingstons particularly through their DNA test results, their Scottish census and parish info and genealogy that were not highland Livingstons who had settled in lowland Scotland as some obviouly were. So I started to look for some sort of DNA evidence that might give us some clues with in addition to family research and Scottish record info might give me eventually a better understanding of these lowland Livingstons which was not prime area of Livingston expertise which had highland Western Argyllshire Mcleas. SO more recently I have been looking at the Livingstons that settled in Ireland in the 1600's part of the Plantation period. With the fire and destruction of Dublin Public records office much of the records of these Ulster Ireland LIvingstons unfortunately was lost but what I did find out some time ago was a number of Livingston families some from Southe Western Scotland and possibly from other parts of Lowland Scotland did infact settle in Ulster North part of Ireland during that 1600's Plantation period. Charles Hanna who wrote a two volume study of lowland Scottish settlement in 1600's Ireland notes that Livingstons, Bells and other families of old South Western County families of lowland Scotland settled in Ulster in the 1600's. Interestedly DNA testing of Ulster LIvingstons however indicates more than one family group so while some may have originated from one of the Counties of South Western Scotland others may have come other parts of Lowland Scotland such as East Lothian and bit part of that family group. So if an Ulster Presbyterian Livingston of obvious Scottish ancestry is a match with your cousin then it is possible and in fact quite likely that his origin ike that of your Livingston cousin could be East Lothian. But as I say one of the problems if your get an Ulster Ireland Livingston matching with your cousin the old Irish records that before the partition of Ireland in early twentieth century are not available or were lost or destroyed in a fire. So finding that some Livingstons in Ulster are a match no doubt links to their lowland Scottish Livingston ancestry through your family, but for them beyond the assumption that the connection was sometime before the Plantation period is very difficult if not possible given all the missing records. Of course it is also possible that their familiy might have just moved from lowland Scotland to Ulster in more recent times but likely is not the case and will probably tell you that there Livignstons have been in Ulster Northern Ireland since the 1600' I suspect.

Getting back to Kevin Livingston, none of us have apparently heard from him for awhile. Myself not since 2010 or 2011 so I am trying to find out if he still living as he not too well in 2010 after an accident he had. Also I should mention that his earliest verifiable ancestry was in Prestopan, East Lothian and may have jumped to conclusions regarding linking him to Tranent Parish in East Lothian. I am still looking for the complete ancestral line I put together for him in 2011. He is definitely rooted in 18th century in East Lothian but if you don't see a match with your cousin with a Kevin Liviinstone in his matches one explanation could be that Kevin's 18th century Prestopans, East Lothian Livingston family is of another family group in which case we could have two Livingston family line existing in 18th century East Lothian which if true is an important step forward in the development of our understanding of the origins of the East Lothian Livingston families and whether they were related. In future messages I will begin to reconstruct Kevin Livingstone's ancestral line starting with what I do know for certain about his 18h and 19th century Livingston family that lived in Prestopans, East Lothian and then Cannongate, Midlothian in the Edinburgh area before his ancestor settled in Australia as early the 1830's. I thought last night it was in the 1850's but apparently as it was as early as the 1830's and his family eventually made their home he told me in Hobart, Tasmania. Kevin may no longer unfortunately be living, but there must a number of Livingston kin still living in Hobart, Tasmania I suspect and some may someday contact our forum. Anyways right now I would like reconstruct my ancestral line of Kevin as I found some of his 18th and 19th century documented info his familiy at tha time in Scotland that other LIvingstons in Tasmania appear to share. and start from there. My earlier assumption however that he was related to your Tranent East Lothian Livingston, that your cousin Phillip Livington and our Clan officer David Wyse Livingston in 2010 may need to be reconsidered and reevaluated in light of the fact if it turns out that your cousin is not a Y chromosome match with a Kevin Livingstone. The DNA testing of Livingsotns with Western Argyllshire Livingston ancestral information with my own Livingston family has verified their Western Argyllshire but sometimes DNA testing has also been helpful in showing us which Livingstons are not related to our Livingston family and that can also prove to helpful and informative. This may prove to be of those situations if you find that a Kevin Livingston with Prestopans East Lothian ancestry is not match with your cousin Phillip.

Recently I mentioned my hope that some of the old Livingston families still residing today in the Counties in South Western Scotland might participate in our DNA project and with those results we could then verify whether there is any possible shared ancestry of the LIvingstons of Ulster ancestry with those Livingstons who current live in South Western Scotland. It may take sometime for this project idea to happen but already we have a number LIvingstons of Ulster Ireland origin some living in Great Britain and others mainly in the United States Scotch Irish Livinstons they are known to be there. So from we already have a good number of Livingstons of Scotch Irish Ulster ancestry tested in the famlytreenda project but I dont know of too many LIvingstons or South Western Scottish origin who have been tested. It is great however that we clearly have a couple of Livngstons at very least of East Lothian origin tested. I dont know Kevin's kit number an unfortunately did not ask him in 2010 I dont think but you may be find that out from the Livingstone DNA project folks but in any event if Kevin is a match with your cousin you see his name with your cousin's matches. It sounds however like Kevin is not a match with your cousin from what you have told me so far.

Please see my latest posting on the Forum linking yourself and some other Livingston researchers who visited this site with your ancestor James Livingston and Sarah Wood of of late 18th and early 19th century Tranent Parish, East Lothian Scotland. It seems to me quite lucky from the info I have seen they you are all related to sons of James Livingston and Sarah unless I am mistaken.

regards,

Donald
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Re: Livingstones in Australia - DNA connection

Postby Ozlivingstone » Sun Jun 24, 2018 5:00 am

G'day Donald that is quite a lot to absorb and I will certainly look at it closely. I received an email below a few days ago from a Ronald Livingstone in the USA. He is a genetic match of 0 at 37 markers. His ancestry tree is https://www.ancestry.com.au/family-tree ... 0102671457

My name is Ronald Lindsay Livingston and I am also participating in this project. I noticed all 37 markers for YDNA were a match, very close genetic distance. Our kits are adjacent in the un-grouped section. All of my family is from Scotland, my grandparents emigrated to the US in the 1920s. I can trace my Livingston line to Forar, Angus, Scotland in the mid 1700s. So somehow your ancestors in the Edinburgh area and mine in Angus share a common Livingston male ancestor. I checked on Ancestry to look for some connection but have not been successful so far. I did find the tree "John Dean 1956 Family Tree" to be the most robust in this regard. My tree is "Livingston Sommerville".I'm wondering if the common ancestor was from the highlands and decedents migrated to the lowlands and Angus or did a Livingston line originating in the lowlands branch out to Angus (Forfarshire). I just wanted to touch base and am looking forward to seeing how our kits are grouped with in the Livingston and Macwho projects.

Thanks again for your interest.

John
Sydney Australia
john.dean@bigpond.com
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Re: Livingstones in Australia - DNA connection

Postby Ozlivingstone » Sun Jun 24, 2018 5:11 am

The Familytree DNA result is IN29828 Livingstone https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Ma ... e=yresults

It is in the ungrouped section second from the bottom.

The two close matches are

Kit 19583 Livingstone James Livage of Glamis, Angusshire b abt 1675
Kit B224567 Livingston John Liveston, b. 1790
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Re: Livingstones in Australia - DNA connection

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:19 am

Hi John,


Yes I can see that B224567 is a definite match. Marker by marker appears to be a perfect match at 37 markers. If I understood correctly his Livingston ancestry was of the County of Angus? B224567 is not a match with any highland Western Argyllshire Livingston DNA project group in answer to Ron's question. I think the origins of these Lowland Livingstons that have no surviving record of being connected to highland Western Argyllshire is in families that lived in a number of lowland Counties. Ultimately I believe that a study of the parish records of the 1600's and 1700's and 1800's of a number of lowland Counties in Argyllshire and more efforts to located more descendants of 17th, 18th century and 19th century Livingstons who lived in Lowland Counties with no known Western Argyllshire family origins would help to increase our understanding of their origins and which lowland Livingstons match which DNA groups. A significant number of highland Argyllshire Maclea Livingstons did settle in Lanarkshire and some other counties in lowland Scotland in the late 1700's and early 1800's and thereafter but census records or family information will often indicate their Western Argyllshire but clearly the DNA results are indicating a good number of Livingstons resided in some of the Lowland counties that are not of highland Western Argyllshire origin and therefore have another Livingston family origin in the lowlands worth trying to make sense of. A classic example of this are the Livingstons that we know resided in East Lothian of which the 18th and 19th century parish records indicate you are descended from. And it may be that somehow some of these LIvingstons that lived in the County of Angus are for some reason also connected to your East Lothian Livingston family group. 67 marker or 111 marker results would I think make the actual closeness of East Lothian and Angus Livingston match seen with more clarity. But it does look like a very promising lead of some significance.

regards,

Donald
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Re: Livingstones in Australia - DNA connection

Postby Ozlivingstone » Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:23 am

Hi Donald I have ordered the 111 marker test as well as Big Y. Maybe it will provide more clarity as more people test. It all seems intriguing. I am glad the DNA is adding other piece to the puzzle from the Tranent area. I cant see any connection to Angus and I will call Ronald Livingstone in a few days in the USA to see what I can find out. I emailed your O'Brien contact in Sydney but contact as yet.

John
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