Coll Livingstone, the Bachuil's wife Mary Carmichael

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Coll Livingstone, the Bachuil's wife Mary Carmichael

Postby TomPPaterson » Fri Feb 01, 2019 7:30 pm

Hi,

Can I introduce myself as this is my first posting to the forum?

I’m Tom Paterson living in Surrey, England but born in Stirling, Scotland. I do not (as yet) know of any direct ancestors who are of the Livingstone clan, but I do have descendants who hail from Lismore and some distant cousins who married into the Livingstones. I have a website, www.tompaterson.co.uk, a bit old and dated now, that has been going since 1995 and has some bits about Lismore as well as a copy of the 1881 Lismore census however, these days, my full tree can be found on Ancestry where I am mostly spreading out and working backwards to my DNA matches.

My 3x great-grandparents were all born and died in Lismore. They had common Lismorian names; viz,
Dugald McGregor (Abt. 1794 - Abt. 1853) born in Achuaran, lived at Balnagowan then died at Tirfiuir and Janet Connell (1798 – 1864) born in Balnagowan, died at Tirfuir.

Duncan Buchanan (1793-1860), born in Colinanbard, died in Balnagowan and his wife Mary Carmichael (1796-1871), born in Balure, died in Balnagowan.

It is this last Mary Carmichael the concerns me and is the reason for this post. I believe it was my Mary who was baptised on 29 Feb 1796, daughter to John Carmichael and Mary Carmichael in Balure, and who married Duncan Buchanan. The problem is that you have this on the Livingstone family tree page:

“COLL LIVINGSTONE OF BACHUIL, Baron of the Bachuil, b. 16 Jan. 1773 at Bachuil; m. 1812, Mary Carmichael, b. 29 Feb. 1796 at Balure, Lismore, and had issue,”

I can see why you have selected this Mary, because her age would be 45 in the 1841 census at Bachuil, near the age of 40 that was recorded, even though an age of 45 should not be rounded down. Can you tell me where did the marriage in 1812 come from? Was that just based on the first child Anne’s birth in 1814? Is there any other evidence you have that I don’t know of because I’m convinced I’ve got this right?

I can follow Mary through each of the census returns to her death in 1871 in Balnagowan with the recorded ages matching almost perfectly:

1796, baptism 29 Feb 1796, so birth sometime before that; usually within a couple of weeks at most
1841, age 40 (this census rounded down the ages over 15 to the nearest 5)
1851, age 55
1861, age 65
1871, age 75
Death, Nov 1871, age 76 (Informant was son Dugald Buchanan, recording her parents as John Carmichael and Mary Carmichael)

Other evidence is through my DNA matches. I have 5 DNA matches that have a confirmed lineage back to Dugald Carmichael (Abt. 1783 – 1853) who was brother to my Mary, and another 30 DNA matches who share a DNA match with those 5 but do not have a well enough developed tree of their own to confirm their lineage

So who was Coll was married to?

As Ann was the name of Coll's first daughter it is possible that was Mary's mother name but I've looked for Carmichael families with a mother named Ann but don't see any sensible candidates in the right time-frame.

In my opinion one of the most likely is a Mary Carmichael baptised 18 Jan 1787 to Hugh Carmichael and Sarah McColl in Inverfolla, Appin. On 5 Feb 1794 a Euphie was baptised to Hugh Carmichael and Sarah McColl in Achuaran, Duncan 1776, Dugald 1797. If this is the correct Mary for Coll’s wife then she would have been age 53, rounded down to 50 in the 1841 census so we’d have to accept that the census was wrong recording Mary's ages as 40 rather than 50. Downside is that Coll did not have a son named Hugh as you would expect.

As Ann was the name of Coll's first daughter it is possible that this was Mary's mother name. I've looked for Carmichael families with a mother named Ann but don't see any sensible candidates in the right time-frame.

There was also a Mary “born on 14 Oct 1787 to Hugh Carmichael and Unknown McColl in Achuaran, Lismore”, I believe this one was the Mary who died in 1855, age 67, whose mother was Catherine McColl. She was the wife of Dugald Carmichael, my 4th great-uncle mentioned above.

Anyway, sorry for prattling on, let me know what you think.
Tom
TomPPaterson
 
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Re: Coll Livingstone, the Bachuil's wife Mary Carmichael

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Sat Feb 02, 2019 5:19 am

Hi Tom,
Welcome to the Clan Maclea Livingstone Forum.
That Bachuil Livingstone family tree information was added to the Clan Maclea Livingstone website about 15 years ago or thereabouts I believe. From your Lismore Buchannon family info I can see that your ancestor Duncan Buchannon of Balngown, Lismore was also married to a Mary Carmichael of Lismore born it certainly looks like from her records around 1796. I will see what I can find out.

The Lismore Church of Scotland parish record includes baptism records of Lismore residents including Mary Carmichael baptized in 1796 and also most of the children of Coll Livingstone and his wife Mary Carmichael, but all the baptism records apparently survive. One of Coll and Mary's sons the youngest one Dougald has no surviving Baptism record but later settled in Sarnia Ontario Canada, by the 1850's and married and had a family there and his Ontario, Canada marriage record confirms that he was indeed a son of Coll Livingstone and Mary Carmichael and his gravestone state he was of Lismore so I know from all of these surviving records that our Clan Chief is correct about ancestor Baron Coll Livingstone's wife being a Mary Carmichael. And there are also the Lismore parish records mentioning the children and parents names. Beyond that I don't know anything family details regarding Baron Coll Livingstone's wife Mary Carmichael to prove beyond doubt she was born in 1796 and to be of much help to you unfortunately regarding your inquiry. I don't know whom her parents were for certain or what source was used which stated that particular Mary Carmichael was the wife of Baron Coll Livingstone.

Please be patient while I try to piece this all together in my head and better familiarize myself with your Duncan Buchannon and Mary Carmichael family information so that perhaps I can be of some help to you in your effort to try to sort this all out. Thank-you for with sharing your own research and pointing me in the right direction so that I can some preliminary research of my own on this before consult with Baron Livingstone on this one.
Marriage Entry 1820 Church of Scotland Muckrairn Parish, Argyllshire
1.Your ancestor Duncan Buchanan married at Kilmoronag or Kilmornaig, Muckairn Parish, Argyll Mary Carmichael of Lismore on January 2, 1820 (nearby is Oban, Argyll if that is any help)

2. I see the available info your mentioned on your ancestor Mary (Carmichael) Buchanan widow of the late Duncan Buchanan certainly suggests she was born abt. 1796 for the most part and to a John Carmichael of Lismore. I have been going over some of the principal sources to get a better sense of it for myself that you mentioned.
1841 Census Balnagown, Lismore Mary Buchanan age 40 (born abt. 1801)
1851 Census Balnagown, Lismore Mary Buchanan age 55 (born abt. 1796) (Mary Carmichael)
Duncan Buchannon crofter died at Balnagown, Lismore Feb. 17, 1860
1861 Census Balnagown, Lismore widow Mary Buchanan age 65 (born abt. 1796) (Mary Carmichael)
1871 Census Balnagown, Lismore Mary Buchanan age 76 (Mary Carmichael)
Mary Buchanan widower died Nov. 8, 1871 Balnagown, Lismore

3.Mary Buchanan's death entry Balnagown, Lismore, Argyll and information from the Scottish death registry
Mary Buchanan died on Nov. 8, 1871 age 76 Balnagown, Lismore, widow of Duncan Buchanan according to informant her son Dougald Buchanan his mother Mary Carmichael was the daughter of John Carmichael and Mary Carmichael which is also consistent with Lismore baptism info for Mary Carmichael of Balure Lismore baptized in 1796 and probably born abt. 1796. but I can't rule in my mind the possibility somehow that the Mary Carmichael of Balngown, Lismore baptized and like born in 1793 is more likely Duncan's wife given the fact that they later lived at Balngown,lismore in later years and the Duncan Buchannon family had a connection there. But I realize there are valid arguments against this 1793 Mary Carmichael born at Balngown being your 1796 Mary Carmichael and why you would logically go with the 1796 Mary Carmichael of Balure, Lismore.

The Mary Carmichaels of Lismore circa 1790's
Looking the original Lismore Parish baptism entries for Mary Carmichaels, oddly enough, I noticed that there are three Mary Carmichaels baptized in Lismore from the beginning January of 1793 to the end of February 1796 whose are daughters of a John Carmichael. It does not help matters that in some cases the name of mother is not legible and sometimes the village but it is interesting that one from 1786 Baptism indicated Mary is from Balure, Lismore and then another Mary baptized in 1793 is from Balngown, Lismore where your interestingly enough your ancestor Mary Carmichael b.1796 and her husband DUncan Buchanon resided and where widow Mary (Carmichael) Buchannon is recorded in the census of 1851, 1861 and 1871 and apparently before that.
The Mary Carmichael of contention was baptized Feb.29, 1796. I can't read the name of the wife and I am just seeing " Mary daughter of John Carmichael and _____ Carmichael of Balure (Lismore) you mention. Feb. 29, 1796, Another baptism is for a Mary Carmichael baptized March 10, 1793 daughter of John Carmichael and Christian McEwen in Blarchaskaig? and and oddly enough there is a Mary Carmichael daughter of John Carmichael and _____ McColl baptized January 9, 1793 in Balnagown according to the original entry page in old Lismore parish book, where interestingly enough your ancestor Mrs. Duncan Buchanan (Mary Carmichael) lived with her family who also was of Balnagown though this Mary Carmichael is to be sure born about 3 years earlier than the 1796 Mary Carmichael the Mary Carmichael in contention here was.

Unfortunately the Balnagown Mary Carmichael mentioned in the 1790's Lismore parish baptism records does not appear to be born abt. 1796 but probably in 1793 based on her 1793 baptism, a few years earlier than the Mary Carmichael who married your ancestor Duncan Buchanan in Lismore and her mother is apparently a McColl and not a Carmichael. The information I noticed on the Mary Buchanan's death info of Nov. 8, 1871 states that the deceased Mary Buchanan was the daughter of John Carmichael and Mary Carmichael which is basically what the 1796 baptism entry in the old Lismore Church of scotland record book stated for a Mary Carmichael of Lismore baptized and presumingly born in 1796 in Balure, Lismore. The informant was her son a Dougald Buchanan. That being said I notice oddly in the next entry Carmichael death entry he also refers the husband and wife as being a Carmichael which sometimes is done when they don't know the name of the brides family. I would think despite the 1793 baptism date that the Mary Carmichael of Balnagown is more likely the Mary Carmichael that married Duncan Buchanan of Balnagown, but I can't prove that. Census records are notorious for having inaccurate age info in my experience so it might be possible that the census takers recorded her a couple years older than she actually was. Not sure thought that is the case though here and I do see what you are saying and for sure why you would suspect an error with the Carmichael info here given the info there is regarding a your own Mary Carmichael ancestor born abt. 1796 according to the census record info who married your ancestor Duncan Buchanan in Lismore.

I will pass your query on to our Clan Chief Baron Niall Livingstone.


regards,
Donald (Livingstone) Clink
Historian
Clan Maclea Livingstone Society
Canadian Livingstone
 
Posts: 2587
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Coll Livingstone, the Bachuil's wife Mary Carmichael

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:53 pm

Hi Tom,
The Balnagown Lismore Carmichael Parish records 1793-1801
I think we can agree that Mrs. Duncan Buchanan's (Mary Carmichael's father was a John Carmichael of Lismore and that she, her husband Duncan Buchanan and her children later lived in Balngown Lismore, but I have not completely ruled out in my mind the notion that Duncan Buchanan's wife Mary Carmichael may also actually been born there and was the Mary Carmichael daughter of John Carmichael and Dorothea Mcoll of Balngown, Lismore the only Carmichaels residing in Balngown, Lismore in the years at least 1793 to 1801 according to the original pages of the old Lismore Church of Scotland Baptism book.

Baptisms of Children of John Carmichael and Dorothea McColl
July 22, 1790 Duncan son of John Carmichael and Dorothy McColl in Achguaran?, Achuaran? Lismore

Jan 9, 1793 Mary daughter of John Carmichael and _______ McColl in Balnagown, Lismore

March 25, 1795 John son of John Carmichael and ______ McColl in Balnagown, Lismore

June 26, 1797 Ann daughter of John Carmichael and _____ McColl in Balnagown, Lismore

Jan. 10, 1799 ______ daughter of John Carmichael and Dorothea McColl in Balnagown, Lismore

Nov. 27, 1801 Hugh son of John Carmichael and Dorothea McColl in Balnagown, Lismore

Unanswered Balnagown Lismore related questions?
1.When did John Carmichael and Dorothea McColl vacate their Croft at Balnacroft sometime between 1801 and 1834 and who occupied their croft in Balnacroft after their departure or death?

2. Duncan Buchanan and Mary Carmichael occupy Croft in Balnacroft sometime between their 1820 marriage and 1823 when their first child according to their 1823 baptism record is born at Balnacroft. Whose croft did they occupy in Balnacroft at this time?

Baptisms of Children of Duncan Buchanan and Mary Carmichael of Balngown, Lismore born in Balnagown, Lismore from years 1823 to 1839
Hugh April 4 1823
Archibald March 24,1825
John July 26,1826
Niel May 27, 1828
Dugald April 20, 1830
Duncan Sept 17,1832
Catharine March 4,1836
Ann May 13, 1837
William January 20,1839

Head of Household 1834 Balnagown, Lismore
Duncan Buchanan
Duncan McColl
Donald Connell
Donald Keith
John Stewart
Which of these tenants is occupied the old John Carmichael and Dorothea McColl croft sometime between 1801 and the 1820's?
regards,

Donald
Canadian Livingstone
 
Posts: 2587
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Coll Livingstone, the Bachuil's wife Mary Carmichael

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:44 pm

Hi Tom,

Baron Alexander Livingstone became Baron of Bachuil in 1842 with the death of his father Baron Coll Livingstone. Baron Alexander Livingstone died age 91 yrs at Bachuil, Lismore on August 23th 1906 and his death entry confirms that he was the son of Coll Livingstone landed proprietor and Mary Carmichael. Unfortunately Mary Carmichael also seems to have died in the 1840's so no detailed later death info regarding her. From the Lismore records I can't offer proof that Baron Alexander Livingston's mother was the Mary Carmichael of Balure, but it is significant that Mary Carmichael of Balure would have lived in her youth at Balure situated nearby to the ancestral home of Bachuil Livingstones at Bachuil. See map below. I realize though that proximity is not proof.

http://www.streetmap.co.uk/place/Lismor ... 852611.htm

regards,

Donald
Canadian Livingstone
 
Posts: 2587
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Coll Livingstone, the Bachuil's wife Mary Carmichael

Postby TomPPaterson » Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:38 pm

Thanks for doing all that Donald. I was hoping you might have more details of Mary's death from a gravestone or will or the like. So far though I think the odds are still stacked in favour of Mary, born1796 in Balure, being my Mary. Restating the case .....

1) Although her birth record does not state her mother's given name there are two other births, Dugald(1783) and Hugh (1786), born in Balure to John Carmichael and Mary Carmichael. The earlier older children's births were in Achuoran.

2) As well as Mary's age in the census returns from 1841-1871 matching the 1796 birth, her brother Dugald's age in the 1841 and 1851 census matches his 1783 birth date.

3) Her age at her death given by her son was 76 which matches a birth date of 1796

4) On her death her son Dugald stated that Mary's parents were John Carmichael and Mary Carmichael. I don't believe he just didn't know his grandmother's maiden name - he lived with his mother for 40 years of his life. Dugald , by the way, was one of the tenants who were elected to speak out at the Crofter's comission - he was no fool.

5) None of the other suggestions or names put forward, like Dorothy, make any sense to me except he fact that there was a Mary born at Balnagowan a few years earlier

6) I have DNA matches with 5 descendants of Mary's brother Dugald from different branches who ended up across the pond. If Mary's parents are wrong then so are Dugalds

The case for this Mary being Coll Livingtone's wife relies on a single piece of evidence,

1) Mary Livingston at Bachuil in 1841 is recorded as being age 40, i.e. 40-44., 20 years younger than her husband, giving birth to her first child at age 18. If she was born in Feb 1796 then she would be 45 at least in April 1841.


Ok, I think that will have to do for the time being. My next step will be to get a copy of the Lismore and Appin MI's, but that will need to wait until I'm next in Scotland in April.

Thanks again and thank the Baron for me
Tom
TomPPaterson
 
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Re: Coll Livingstone, the Bachuil's wife Mary Carmichael

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:28 am

Hi Tom,

The Baron of Bachuil is unfortunately not very well at the moment and therefore I passed your query on to his Clan representative for the time being, so that the Baron will be made aware of your query when he is feeling better. He is of course the ultimate authority in our Clan with the greatest insight regarding his Bachuil Livingstone family genealogy. As I said I completely understand from the info you have why you feel that the Mary Carmichael b.1796 of Balure, Lismore was the wife of your ancestor Duncan Buchanan and I agree with you that from that info that it does seem like Mary Carmichael b. 1796 of Balure, Lismore could be the wife of your ancestor Duncan Buchanan. I hope you can respect the fact though that the situation is that I am not entirely certain as there is a particle of doubt in my mind despite your strong supporting information backing your position. Having said that I appreciate and respect your research efforts and obvious detailed knowledge of your Lismore ancestors. I definitely learned quite a bit about the Lismore Carmichaels that I was not aware of before, in the process of working with your research information.

sincerely yours,

Donald (Livingstone) Clink
Historian
Clan Maclea Livingstone Society
Canadian Livingstone
 
Posts: 2587
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm


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