Hugh Livingstone 1808

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allanl
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:40 am

Hugh Livingstone 1808

Post by allanl »

after about 14 years away I have decided to come back and look at my tree. I had previously done the Y37 DNA test and had a GD result of 1 with the Baron. I have been rebuilding my tree in Ancestry as previously I had used friends/genesReunited.

I traced my family back to Hugh Livingstone 1808 born Kilninian Argyll
from his christening record he had parents of Duncan Livingstone and Catharine McDonald
Hugh also had siblings of
Neil Livingstone 1811 -
Duncan Livingstone 1812-1892
Margaret "Peggy" Livingstone 1814-1892
John Livingstone 1816-
Charles Livingstone 1818-

On matches with other trees on Ancestry they seem to link hughs parents to a Duncan Livingstone 1771, but have his death as 1815 at Waterloo. If this is the case then we have the anomaly of John and Charles coming after this date. I have a copy of both John and Charles christening records and both have parents of Duncan Livingstone and Catherine McDonald.

On others trees Duncan Livingstone links to -> Donald Livingstone 1741 -> Neil Mac-an-leigh Livingstone 1714 -> John Malcolm Livingstone 1687 -> John the Elder Livingstone 1631 -> Sir David B Livingston 1612 -> Michael Livingston 1589 -> Sir Alexander Livingstone 1st Earl of Linlithgow 1561 -> and so on

This line seems to go in the path of the Callendar Livingstones. If my dna has a link to the Baron then could this be possible?

My main hope in this post is if anyone has information on if this could be Hughs father and mother and their line.
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2770
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Hugh Livingstone 1808

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi allanl,
Welcome to the Clan Maclea Livingstone Forum.
The results of the 37 marker Y DNA test seems to indicate that you may share a common Livingston ancestor with Baron Livingstone and other Bachuil Lismore and neighbouring Appin Parish Livingstons in his Bachuil Lismore Livingston Y DNA Argyllshire Livingston Y DNA match group. I would however suggest that you do either a 67 or 111 marker Y DNA test with Family Tree DNA to get a more precise genetic distance when comparing your Y DNA marker by marker results with Baron Livingstone and other Lismore and Appin Livingstons that have been tested. I assume you are a Livingston and that your Father and his paternal forefathers were Argyllshire Livingstons. The genetic distance increases a bit with the 67 and particular with the 111 marker test with the most precise results so I would encourage you to consider getting additiona genetic markers tested.

Most the Livingstons who have the Y DNA test descended from Livingston who resided in the 18th and 19th century in the parishes of Mull like Kilninian Parish for the most part are matching with one of the two other Argyllshire Livingston Y DNA match groups. That being said is no reason why a Livington family of Lismore and Appin Livingston origin could not have lived in the 18th and 19th century in one of the parishes of Mull. In the 18th and 19th century Livingston families quite often migrated and lived in a number of parishes throughout Western Argyllire.

If you did the Y DNA test with family tree I would rely more on the Livingston family matches with other Livingstons of Argyllshire Livingston origin listed in your Y DNA 36 marker test match results with other Livingstons on your matches pages. If you have found some Kilninian Parish Mull connected to your Kilninian Parsih family you mention then may perhaps be related to you but it would prove to be very difficult I would to connect your Kilninian Parish, Mull family to a branch of the old Bachuil Lismore and related Appin Parish Livingstons through a study of the ancestry.com submitted family trees. I am really n I will probably prove difficult for you to link you LIvignston family who lived in Kilninian Parish Mull, Argyll to a specific Livingston famiy related to Baron Livingston and his Lismore and Appin Bachuil Livingston ancestral group using ancestry.com. Ancestry.com is wonderful resource with all the family records and family trees available to the Livingston researcher. Be careful however with submitted family trees as quite often I have found errors in the Livingston research particularly where some contain obvious speculation as to their earlier LIvingsston ancestors and don't have supporting Scottish records to support this family connection. Ancestry.com frequently contacts with updated information on a located 2nd or third cousin whom I have never heard though clearly a few of the name in the last couple of years I am recognize as being like related to my father or mother's family.

Not uncommon for some Livingstons to submit family trees linking their family to Livingston ancestors of Dr. David Livingstone. In most cases this has no actual basis in fact and was based more on speculation than in any documentation. I have been researching the family and kin of Dr. Livingstone for a number of years now and I have come across only a few Livingstons who are actually related to Dr. LIvingstone and Livingston family group. Back in 2006 or thereabouts I had a documented great grandson of Dr. David Livingstone's older brother John Livingston 1811-1899 do the Y DNA test with family tree and his results only matches with a few persons of Livingston family origins and it appears that they were a small Livingston family group that reside in Kilninian Parish Mull in the 18th century near to "other Livingstons in Mull whose descendants when tested by Family Tree DNA proved to be for the most part matching with their own Argyllshire Livingston Y DNA match group.

Regarding the old lowland Scottish family of aristocratic titled Livingston families the Calendar Livingstons of Stirlingshire, Scotland i have not been able to locate a proven male Livington descendant who has so far done the Y DNA test to the best of my knowledge through there are a couple of Livingstons in New York Family of old New York Colonial New York families who have been tested by family tree and claim to be descended from A Robert Livingston who settle in New York in the late 1600's
who was according to family tradition descended from branch of the old Callendar Stilingshire Livnston. Neither of them however have Y DNA results are matching or consistent at all with the three main Y DNA group of Argyllshire Livingston origin which inclues the Bachuil Livingston group, a large group largely of Mull and Morvern Livingston origin and third group matching with a Livingston relative of Dr. Livington and other Livingstons who lived in Southern Argyllshire on the Isle of Islay and interestingly enogh a group of lowland Livingston who settled back in the 1600's in the North part of Ireland known as Ulster. So I can offer no information off Y DNA results indicating that Baron Livingstone's Bachuil Lismore and Appin Y DNA match group would be ancestrally connected to the Callendar Livingstons of Stirling shire or for that matter the Linlithgow lowland Livingston families. And no really credible family research information suggesting a link to our highland Arygyllshire Clan Maclea Livingstones of which you are likely connected to from what you have stated in your Kilninian Parish, Mull, Argyll family info.

regards,

Donald
allanl
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:40 am

Re: Hugh Livingstone 1808

Post by allanl »

thanks for such a detailed response. I am certainly considering a more detailed DNA test.

I was double checking the work I did about 13 years ago which was my first ever go at genealogy and have full confidence back to Hugh in 1808 with his father and mothers names known but no other details. In ancestry I do see a few people linking to particular parents, but was wondering how this information was gathered. My hope is there might have some people that have information on this forum that I never found.
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2770
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Hugh Livingstone 1808

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi allanl,

Do you have some additional information regarding your later Scottish Livingston family descended from this these early 19th century Kilninian Parish Livingston Parish family? I would to see how your later Livingstons connect to these Livingstons born in the early 19th century. I would like to try and understand your Livingston ancestral line and how the later Livingstons you are descended from connect with the Kilninian Parish Livingston you mentioned.


Did you try looking for Kilninian parish, Mull marriage record for Duncan Livingston and Catharine McDonald presumingly your ancestor Hugh's parents which might give you some additional info. Also did you locate Hugh Livingston's marriage record confirming the name of his wife and follow in the census records presumingly in Kilninia Parish. Do you know when Hugh died and whether or not he died after 1855 in Scotland. As if that is the case I may be able to locate a detailed death record for him in the Scottish Registry of deaths after 1855 which after 1855 are very detailed and sometimes quite helpful to researchers. Important to me the know whether or not Hugh appears in the Scottish census records in the 1800's so I track him and determine whether or not he was living in Scotland after the Scottish Government began an organized and detailed registration of birth, deaths and marriages. Anyways if you can let me know if found your ancestor Hugh in the Kilninian Parish Census records or if he later migrated to other parts of Scotland or left Scotland altogether later in the 1800's. It has some bearing on my ability to research him.

Quite frequently it is challenging for Mull Livingston family researchers to take their Livingston family back into the 18th century and connect their early 19th century Livingston family to earlier descendants who resided in the 18th century. There are some parishes in Mull and elsewhere in Argyll that for sure have birth/baptism and marriage records included in the old Church of Scotland Parish books that record information from the late 18th century but often Livingston researchers can't be 100 per cent certain the Livingston they find in the 18th century records that they think may be an ancestor is for certain Livingston their ancestor. I have seen some Kilninian Parish Livingston researcher searching for an ancestors birth or baptism record in the 18th century Kilninian parish in the past have some difficulties.

From time to time Livingstons and related kin post information on their Argyllshire Livingston ancestor on this Forum hoping to share info with other Livingstons related to their Livingston family and from time to time they are successful making contact on the forum with distant relative, but there are so many Livingstons whose ancestors resided in a number of Western Argyllshire parishes posting on this website over the years that most of them do get a response on the Forum from Livingstons who share the same Livingston ancestry and have some info to share on their Livingston family. However it is good idea for any Livingston of Scottish ancestry to contact the forum as we may be able to help them to discover some Scottish Livingston family info they were not aware existed. I have gained a fair amount of experience and knowledge over the years, researching Livingstons who resided in Scotland in the 18th and 19th century particularly those Livingstons who resided in highland Western Argyllshire.

I assumed that you did your original Y DNA for 37 markers with Familytreedna where a number of Livingstons of Lismore and one of neighbouring Appin origin have been tested including our Maclea Livingstone Clan Chief Baron Livingstone. I just want to make sure I am correct about that because I think are other companies other than Familytreedna offering a Y DNA test but Familytreedna is one that our Clan Chief and several other Livingstones of Lismore and Appin origin were tested and are a match with.

regards,

Donald
allanl
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:40 am

Re: Hugh Livingstone 1808

Post by allanl »

I have quite a lot of information for them. I am trying to fill out other parts of the tree now like siblings of Hugh Livingstone 1808.

How is it best to share? Do you want me to share my ancestry.co.uk tree? I started this last week, but have most of the information in now.

Or is it best to paste most of the information here for others to follow? If so I will spend some time tomorrow trying to get a decent layout.

On the mullgenealogy site the hugh with the correct names are
http://www.mullgenealogy.co.uk/mullsear ... v_no=27122 This has the correct birth date and the correct parent names, but the children names are wrong. Perhaps is correct lineage, but wrong children. I had these parents down initially but changed to someone else with the same names this week, but I have no information on which one is correct. These reason the current Duncan Livingstone is probably wrong is people have him dying at waterloo and i have 2 children recorded against him and his wife on 1816 and 1818

There are quite a lot of lines coming from Hugh and his siblings at this level. Hugh alone had 10 children.

http://www.mullgenealogy.co.uk/mullsear ... v_no=27123 This is his brother Neil
http://www.mullgenealogy.co.uk/mullsear ... v_no=27126 this is Duncan with correct wife. I have found them on the 1861 census.
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2770
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Hugh Livingstone 1808

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi allanl,

The Mull Genealogy info is trying to link your ancestor Duncan Livingston with a son of of Dr. David Livingstone's grandfather Neil Livingston Sr. and Mary Morrison of Mull, Argyll who are thought of had a son named Duncan Livingston who died in the Napoleonic Wars. It was thought by the Dr. Livingstone family that some or most of son's of Dr. Livingstone's grandparents Neil Livingston died during the Napoleon Wars. Definitely not the case of Neil Sr. and Mary's son Neil Jr. born in 1788 on the Isle of Ulva in the Mull area and who was the Father of Dr. David Livingstone. Neil Livingston Jr. David's father died in 1856 sadly just a short time prior to Dr. David Livingston returned from from his first efforts in Africa. He had not been home since he departed for Africa in December of 1840. Bear in mind that there are a multitude over the years who have tried to link Dr. Livingstone's Livingston family to their Livingston family. It is one of the most common misconceptions a good number of Livingston researchers have had over the years that have contacted this Forum. So I am never surprised to see attempts at linking Dr. Livingstone's grandfather's sons to a Livingston family of Argyll origin. Almost all of it is based on speculation, wishful thinking and not on well documented proof. Hope that is not too disappointing. My Father and Grandfather and my Father's cousin used to also suspect our Livingston side of the family was related somehow to Dr. Livingstone even though are Livingston family had apparently lived in Morvern Parish area for over 400 years probably and the Y DNA testing proves no connection to Dr. Livingstone's Livington ancestors. If you are matching with Baron Livingstone and other Livingstons mostly of Lismore and neighbouring Appin ancestry then I should also mention that your Y DNA result is proof that do not share a paternal ancestry with Dr. David Livingstone and related Livingston families.

And while I have to be honest it will almost certainly will prove impossible to find old Parish records in Argyllshire showing and proving your Mull Livingston family connection with the Livingstons of Lismore and Appin such as Baron Livingston our Clan Chief, your Y DNA tests definitely confirm that your Mull Livingston are actually rooted earlier in the centuries to Livingstons that resided in Lismore in neighbouring Appin and that you seem to share the same ancestors at some point in the distant past in Argyllshire with Livingstons originating in Lismore and Appin. Your Y DNA results from what you have told me are not match with the Livingstons tested with ancestral roots in Mull which I am sure was probably surprising to you.

(More to follow)
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2770
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Hugh Livingstone 1808

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi allanl,

First problem I encountered was that I could not a marriage entry for your ancestor Hugh Livingston and his wife Mary to get her maiden name to establish a year and date of marriage from the old Argyll Church of Scotland records. I also had the same problem finding any birth or baptism records for the children of Hugh Livingston and his wife Mary in old Argyll Church of Scotland records Nor could any of the above mentioned of them in records in Kilninian Parish or any other County or Parish in Scotland for them.

I had however some luck finally using another tried and method in determining the maiden of Hugh's wife. I used Hugh and Mary's son Duncan his 1874 East Greenock, Renfrewshire marriage in which the name of his parents Hugh Livingston and Mother Mary''s (maiden name given in son Duncan's marriage record was McDonald and apparently sometime after the death of Mary's husband Hugh Livingston's death the son's marriage record notes that Mrs Hugh Livingston last name was subsequently McMaster and I assume then that she must have married a man named McMaster following the death of her sometime between 1861 and 1874. That marriage may well be in the Scottish registry with detailed marriage records during that period which might help to confirm that widow Mary Livingston following the death of husband Hugh became a McMaster, but I think based on the info included in son Duncan's 1874 marriage record to be the case.

This is interesting piece of information became I located the family of Hugh Livingston in the 1851 and 1861 Census and in the 1861 your ancestor Mary (McDonald) Livingston is apparently without husband Hugh. As their son Duncan Livingston appears to have born abt. 1853 it may be that Mary's husband Hugh died sometime between 1853 and 1861 the years when he is not recorded with Mary and family in Census. I did not notice if had a maiden name for Hugh's wife Mary but perhaps you already known all this. Just thought I would see what is not missing in the Hugh and Mary Livingston family records in the Scottish parish records. I had almost given finding a parish record connected to Hugh and Mary that would give me her maiden name. This is youngest son Duncan's 1874 marriage so the detailed on his Father and mother I would assume was submitted by him and therefore has a very good chance of being accurate I would suspect.

Hugh's wife Mary McDonald seems to be Mary McDonald born March 24, 1822 at Aharacle which is not in Kilninan Parish, Mull but in nearby Ardnamurchan Parish Argyll. Parents were John McDonald and Mary Mceachern according this 1822 birth record. Now while 1851 Census of Kilninain Parish, Mull indicates that Hugh's wife Mary. according to her age at time born abt. 1822 in Kilninian Parish, Mull. We do however with great luck have the 1861 Census Toberymory, Mullwhere your ancestor Mary Livington is apparently by now widowed with an age that states she was also born abt. 1822 as the 1851 Census Mary Livingston but this time states she was born in Ardnamurchan Parish in Argyll and not Kilninian Parish in Mull. I think this is confirmation that Hugh's wife Mary McDonald was born in 1822 in Ardnamurchan Parish to John McDonald and Mary Mceachern.

Hugh's widow Mary Livingston married a Hugh McMaster sometime between the 1861 Scottish Census and the 1871 Census when Mary Livingston born in Ardnamurchan Parish when she first appears in Argyll, Scotland Census records as Mary McMaster born in Ardnamurchan. Note son Duncan Livingston's 1874 marriage record I mentioned states that his Mother Mrs. Hugh Livingston subsequently went by the family name of husband McMaster. So there is no doubt her second husband was this Hugh McMaster who lived with her in Tobermory Parish where as a widow Mary Livingston she previously appears in the 1861 Census with a daughter Ann or Mary Ann born abt. 1849 in Kilninian Parish and her youngest son Duncan Livingston born IN Tobermory Mull in abt. 1853. She and her second husband Hugh McMaster had apparently one daughter after their marriage named Mary McMaster born abt. 1866 in Tobermory Parish. Hugh and Mary McMaster of Tobermory appear then appear in the 1871 Census, 1881 and 1891 Census then I loose track of Mary McMaster and could not find a death record for her death which must of occurred in the years after 1891. Not certain as yet when they were married but it must of have been sometime between 1861 and 1866 for certain almost certainly in Argyllshire

regards,

Donald
allanl
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:40 am

Re: Hugh Livingstone 1808

Post by allanl »

First problem I encountered was that I could not a marriage entry for your ancestor Hugh Livingston and his wife Mary to get her maiden name to establish a year and date of marriage from the old Argyll Church of Scotland records. I also had the same problem finding any birth or baptism records for the children of Hugh Livingston and his wife Mary in old Argyll Church of Scotland records Nor could any of the above mentioned of them in records in Kilninian Parish or any other County or Parish in Scotland for them.
I have always found finding information on Hugh difficult. I have his christening record and copy from scotlandspeople in 1808. That lists the parents as Duncan Livingstone and Catharine McDonald. I also have the same for his sibling charles 1818.

Reading through your other notes backups up what I found. Hugh Dies between 1851 and 1861 census

Hughs first born Duncan 1853 Tobermorry (My ancestor) had his first son Hugh 1874 (my ancestor again). I took ages finding Hugh in the census records, but have him from 1881 records through to 1901. As you say
Hugh McMaster Age 76
Mary McMaster Age 57
Mary McMaster Age15
Hugh Livingstone Age 6

So hugh 1874 is the Grandson of Hugh 1808. I think I stumbled on this years ago by clicking on the next house of the census which had this Hugh Livingstone with a relationship marked as Mother to a McMaster and I worked back from that. So well done on getting that link quickly :)

My grandfather (Alan Livingstone 1921) used to talk about stories of a relative who was a postman in tobermory. He didnt every say he wasnt a blood relative.

Mary and Hugh McMaster married on the 9 oct 1863 in Tobermory. I found on another tree on ancestry they had her death as 31 Jul 1900 in Victoria Street Tobermory.

I have never found a marriage or death certificate for hugh 1808.

I do have a copy of the marriage cert for his wife and Hugh McMaster that confirms what you found with her parents being John McDonald and Marry Mary Mceachern.

Hughs brother Duncan 1812 died in 1892 and in his death certificate it states the parents again as Duncan Livingstone (farmer) and Catherine MacDonald.
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2770
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Hugh Livingstone 1808

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi allanl,

Thats great. Looks like you have done an excellent job of tracking down all of the surviving records pertaining to Hugh Livingston and his wife Mary McDonald and doesn't look to me like any surviving record has been overlooked.

I tend to rely on the original Scottish parish records and later detailed Scottish registry of birth marriage and death records that commenced around the year 1855 and the Census records from 1841 to 1901 rather than the secondary sources available, but as in many cases secondary sources is all that is available then I will definitely take a serious look at that info. I have sometimes come across in the past that family researchers are tempted and do introduce speculative Livingston family connections to Livingston families they aren't actually related to so that I have learned from experience to be very cautious and careful before accepting secondary source information on genealogy based websites on the internet. I definitely work with info from submitted Livingston family trees, but I go over them and am wary and keeping an eye out for anything Livingston ancestral connection in the family tree info that obviously makes no sense. Since 2004 I have worked here at the Forum with Livingstons with Scottish ancestors from Argyllshire and also those lesser known lowland Livingston families who do not have any ancestral connection with our highland Argyllshire Livingstones.

I have also done extensive research on the Dr. Livingstone's grandfather Neil Livingston Sr. and Mary Morrison and his family and successfully found a proven and documented great grandson of Dr. David Livingstone's older John Livingston 1811-1799 born like his younger famous brother in Blantyre, Lanarkshire whom kindly offered to do the Y DNA test with familytreedna and thus it is now possible through Familytreedna and their Y DNA testing to very easily whether any Livingston in any way shares some sort of paternal ancestral Livingston family connection with the Livingston ancestors of Dr. David Livingstone and his older brother John Livingstone 1811-1899 Their grandfather Neil Livingston Sr. and his wife Mary Morrison I assume and their children moved from their croft on the Isle of Ulva in the Mull, Argyll in the year 1792 where Neil Sr. was seeking a better life for his family and employment in the cotton mill in Blantyre.

The last thing I did was locate the birth record for Hugh McMaster and Mary McDonald's child Mary McMaster born Oct. 1, 1865 as suspected at Tobermory Parish, Mull, Argyll. Interestingly the marriage date of the parents is also written in these registered birth records after 1855 but it states that they were married 1862 in Tobermory. I couldn't actually find their marriage record in the registry of marriages and only know this 1862 date from their child's birth record of 1865, but I may have somehow missed an 1863 date you mentioned. I was surprised I could not find their marriage record in the marriage register when I searched so I had to rely on the info from their child's birth record indicating they were married in Tobermory in 1862. I figured that she must have have married Hugh Master one of the years between in 1861 when she was still single according the 1861 census and 1865 or 1866 when I assumed from the later census info in Tobermory their daughter Mary McMaster was born. Made total sense. You may have noticed in the 1841 Census for Hugh Livingston that his widowed mother Catharine is living with him at Lephein, Kilninian Parish, Mull and she was born abt. 1791. Her husband Duncan Livingston must have died sometime in the years before the 1841 Census in Kilninian Parish, Mull I assume and we definitely won't be able to find death record for him or likely for Catharine his wife for that matter unfortunately. Death records for Argyllshire Livingstons who died before the Scottish Registry was established around 1855 are pretty much impossible to find.

regards,

Donald
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2770
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Hugh Livingstone 1808

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi allanl,
The 1841 Census indicates that your ancestor Hugh Livingston is residing in Lephein in Kilninian Parish, Mull with his widowed mother Catharine and is still a single man. His occupation was apparently Farmer. Interestingly I could not find a Lephein in Kilninian Parish Mull or elsewhere in Mull. The closest match to Lephein in Mull I could find is a Lephein a long abandoned tenant settlement about 4 miles north of Tobermory. Lephein is actually spelt Lephin and I found eventually info on the location and ruins of the former settlement of crofts at Lephin that was situated near to Glengorm Castle apparently located interestedly in Kilninian Parish but not very far from Tobermory in the North of Mull. I think it also significant perhaps that Hugh's widow Mary ends up in the Tobermory area by the time of the 1861 Census and apparently her and Hugh and family in 1851 were residing not far from Tobermory at the time of the birth of their eldest child Duncan Livingston according to that census born abt. 1853 in the Tobermory area.

Prior to Hugh's death in the 1850's and before the widow Mary ends up in the Tobermory area in the 1861 Census Hugh and Mary now married are situated on a farm at Balechrach in Kilninian Parish. The correct spelling is apparently Baliacrach and it was apparently a short distance from both Sorne Castle and Glen Gorm Castle in the north of Mull. If your interested there are ruins of some of the tenant crofts at both Lephin and Baliacrach. Perhaps travel once again becomes a viable option you might consider a trip to Mull and visit to Lephen and Baliacrach ruins. Somewhere admidst the ruins probably was where Hugh Livingston once resided.

https://www.facebook.com/lephinarchaeology2018/

http://glengormcastle.co.uk/room/lephin-cottage/

https://www.glengormwildlife.co.uk/baliacrach


regards,

Donald
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