Nova Scotia/PEI Livingstone Research

[nbcnco]

Barry,

Most of my "research" has been through this thread. So, no conclusive evidence of Alexander being the son on John Livingston and Catherine Campbell.

I have had better luck tracking Alexander's grandson, Alexander (son of Duncan).

Alexander b 1872. Immigrated to Bangor, Maine around 1888. He next shows up in Silver Bow, Montana around 1900. I believe that he married Ellen Jane MacKenzie there in 1900. I need to verify this. Alexander's brother, John is listed in the 1900 census with Katie B (McCall) Livingston. Alexander and Ellen had on daughter, Anna, in 1902 in Montana before heading to Maine.

In 1904, he was naturalized as a US citizen in Portland, ME. My Grandfather, Stanley Duncan Livingston, was born in Portland in 1905. No record of them in the 1910 US census, but Alexander, Ellen, and family are found in the 1911 Canadian census in Rose Valley, PEI

Alexander and Ellen are then found in the 1920 and 1930 US census in North Providence, Rhode Island.

Growing up, I heard many stories of Dad going to Nova Scotia when he was a child. Don't recall any stories of him going to Maine.

[Kyle MacLea]

I'm just wondering from the DNA test, will the DNA results for Alexander's line and Colin's line prove they were brothers or just show they were closely related, similar to the two you posted? I am getting excited about the results of the test and I am hoping it will be prove they were brothers. I guess I watch too many soap operas and detective shows and am hoping it is that easy . From your previous experience, when we are talking about four generations previous, does it show it that clearly? I believe there is a possibility of the DNA mutating through generations.....is that correct?

Mutations are common (more common in some markers than others--some are "slow-moving," others "fast"). In fact, without some mutation level, closeness of relation would be impossible to measure. So mutation is critical for Y-DNA genealogy.

Now, of course, descendants of two brothers a few generations out have had multiple opportunities to mutate (mutations can appear in every generation). Theoretically, two close relatives will show similar mutations if they came from a common ancestor, and this can help you track. There are also reversions, where mutations from a common ancestor may back-mutate (to the original version) in one line, but not another, and this can obscure similarity.

The Western Argyll cluster to which your lines belong (Alexander's does for certain--Colin's is believed to be) is a large cluster, and I think as we test people we'll be able to see "subclusters" of closer relatives. We are already seeing that with some of our cluster members. However, this cluster is unusual in that we didn't even see it at the beginning of the project, and the larger cluster emerged later as two other clusters showed that they merged together when we tested more. Right now, this is probably the most numerous group of Livingston/es among our testees in the entire project. It is clearly an important group to the Clan.

However, we'll never be able to prove they were brothers by this method. Close relatives should be possible--but could they be first cousins instead? I'd say the DNA (through this method) will not say for sure.

One subnote to this is that I think we are going to want to upgrade this entire cluster to 111 markers at some point--which will help verify the closely related subclusters to an even greater degree.

Hope this helps.

Kyle=

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Scott,

Little doubt your grandfather Alexander Livingston was born 1872 in Cape Breton, Nova Scotia as his 1904 U.S Naturalization record indicates that and there is little doubt he was the ALexander Livingston born 1872 in Whycocomagh. Did your father have any knowledge of the Cape Breton and Whycocomagh, Inverness County Livingstons that shared with you before he passed away? Hopefully after we locate a descendant of Colin Livingston of Whycocomagh, Barrys ancestor, we can eventually find a descendant of John Livingston Jr. son of local pioneers John Livingston and Catharine Campbell who lived at neighbouring Mull River/Mabou and see if solve once and for all whether the Mull River/Mabou Livingstons are the neighbouring Whycocomagh Livingstons of ALexander Livingston were kin as my research and that of Dr. St. Clairs is leading me to suspect. Now be aware no one has stated this and Dr. St. Clair never felt he had proof to support this notion though I think this old Mull document from 1821 that Alexander and his family had mentioning that John Livingston and Catharine Campbell and family of Kilninian Parish, Mull were leaving for the port of Pictou Nova Scotia in 1821 is to me a tantilizing piece of information to support my theory. That and the fact there was a family of John Livingston and Catharine Campbell residing at Penmore, Kilninian Parish, Mulll who according to the parish records had several children born fromn the early 1800' to about 1820 when the parish info ends oddly enough. And even more interesting there family included a elder son John born a younger sons Alexander born abt. 1814 and a son Colin a few years younger than ALexander back in Kilninian Parish, Mull Argyllshire, Scotland. If this is not the right family that left in 1821 then this is an amazing coincidence. Some of the Mull RIver/Mabou history on the family suggested that it was a John Livingston and a mary Campbell that arrived in 1824 and settled at Mull River, Cape Breton and even a tombstone was created for them with this info but it should be noted that it is not an original tombstone from the 1840's when John Livingston the elder died at Mull River. John Livington Jr. died around or little before 1860. John Livingston Jr. would have been if my theory is correct another brother of ALexander. I think there was also a Donald and possibly another in the old parish records but I think that some of them died before the family left Scotland or died in their youth in Mull River, Cape Breton. Life expectancy was not great in those days without all the modern medicines we have today and proper sanitation was almost non existent.

Sounds like you have been following some of our earlier discussions on this family. There are quite a few of them to be found here and on many other Livingston families from Nova Scotia and PEi. We have had a number of participants whose origins are that of Cape Breton and PEI but we are hoping for alot more in the future and as we know that there are quite a few Livingston descendants out there many still residing in Cape Breton and PEI and others like yourself residing now in the United States. As Barry and I have been struggling to make some sort of progress in fitting the pieces of this family puzzle together you came along in the DNA project just at the right time and I am hoping that if one of Barry's Livingston cousins participates in the Project that we can determine once and for all whether or not ALexander of Whycocomagh and Colin of Whycocomagh were in all probability brothers. Hopefully modern science can provide the answers to this Cape Breton family mystery.

regards,

Donald

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Barry,
I should think that if you and Scott are descended from two brothers that would show up as very close match - much closer than any other Livingstons to Scott in the project so far. We just have to wait and see what happens I guess. Cant tell you till it happens but that is what I would expect if this were the case based on my basic understanding of the process.

Even if that turns out to be correct as you state regarding Colin earlier residence in PEI, the good news is that it does change the information in the 1867 Prince Edward Island Obituary for your great great grandfather Colin Livingston which states that he was originally from Whycocomagh, Cape Breton in Nova Scotia. There is virtually no reason for his next of kin to have been mistaken about this obscure piece of Livingston family information that only someone familiar with the Livingston family at Whycocomagh, Inverness County, Cape BReton would have known. To me this is pretty concrete documentation that your ancestor Colin Livingston was connected to ALexander Livingston of WHycocomagh's family and as one was born in 1817 and the other 1814 and for other reason mentioned I am under the impression they were brothers. Now we just have to see if we can prove this with the help of science.

regards,

Donald

[Livingstone_PEI]

Hi All

Ok....this seems to be the family of Mull River, Whycocomagh, and Forest Hill. So we are awaiting the DNA results on the brothers, Alexander, John and Colin to prove a relation.

This is the list of the family as I see it, taken from the Isle of Mull website. Who is to say they didn't have other childen after arriving in Nova Scotia too.


Mary (bap) 17 Nov 1806 -
John (bap) 27 Jun 1808 -
Janet (bap) 3 Sep 1810 -
Donald (bap) 8 Nov 1812 -
Alexander (bap) 30 Jun 1814 -
Catherine (bap) 21 Aug 1816 -
Colin (bap) 1 Sep 1818 -
Christina (bap) 26 Dec 1820 -

So looks like we still have one brother unaccounted for. If the family arrived in 1821, he would have only been 9 years old when they arrived in Nova Scotia. In the 1881 census, Alexander of Whycocomagh has a son named Donald. So laws of averages says that he had a close relative named Donald....like maybe a brother. We have pretty well bought into the idea of this family being the family, so where is Donald? Did he die? I don't think so. I have a couple of possibilites, but they are long shots. Donald have you done any research into trying to track down this Donald, or maybe Dr. St. Clair knows his whereabouts.

This family seems to have a close connection with the 9 mile creek Livingstones and I wonder is there anyway this Donald is one of the Nine Mile Creek Donald's? Cousins marrying apparently was quite common back then...my own grandparents on my Dad's side of the family were cousins, so like I said....quite common back then. Donald that would make our families related I believe, since you are related to the 9 mile creek family. Donald what is the sample number for your families DNA in the DNA project? How does it match up with Alexander's DNA?

Barry

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Barry and Scott,

In this previous posting from way back when I am including in this posting, I quote from the original Mull 1821 document that was in the possession of the Skye Mountain, Whycocomagh, Inverness COunty, Cape Breton Alexander Livingston family. I think you want to take a look at this. Please note that the family of John Livingston and Catharine Campbell were said in the document to be departing as a family of 9 and from the parish records we know that there were 8 children born not 7 so one of the children either a daughter or son died sometime before 1821. Copied below.

I checked the records and the lifetime of information by the local historian Dr. St. Clair who is related to the Mull River and Whycocomagh Livingstons and there is only information available regarding a John Livingston born abt. 1800 (1808 perhaps) and ALexander Livingston born 1814 and from Barry`s research (Colin Livingston born 1817 or 1818). Dr. St. Clair had no information that they were brothers but with little information beyond the 1871 and 1881 Census and little else, one cannot deduce the early family connecctions prior in the mid 1800s and before that in the Mull River Mabou and neighbouring Whycocomagh area. I am essentially trying to take the clues from Dr. St. Clairs research and see if we can eventually prove that firstly ALexander and Colin were infact brothers and secondly that John Livingston Jr. son of Mull River Mabou Pioneers John Livingston and Catharine Campbell who died around 1860 was a brother of ALexander and Colin. There are no records out there to prove that or Dr. St. Clair who has been researching for lifetime on these families would have found it. So genealogical DNA testing is the only option.

Hi All,

Knowing that there were at least three posible sons of John Livingston Sr. and Cathrarine Campbell of mull River residing in the Mull River and neighbouring Whycocomagh area: John Livingston Jr., Alexander and Colin Livingston prior to the 1860's I was greatly interested to see that there was a John Livingstone and Catharine Campbell of Kilninian and Kilmore Parish Mull who lived at Penmore and had at least 8 children born between 1806 and 1820 that included a John, Alexander and younger son COlin. John Livingston and Catharine Campbell were married December 31,1805 in Kilninian and Kilmore Parish
From the Baptismal records
Mary 17 Nov 1806
John 27 Nov. 1808
Janet 3 Sep 1810
Donald 8 Nov 1812
Alexander 30 June 1814
Catharine 21 Aug. 1816
Colin 1 sep. 1818
Christina 26 Dec. 1820


Now that could of been a coincidence but then Dr. St. Clair told me that there was an old record from Mull mentioning a John livingston and Catherine Campbell of Kilninian and Kilmore Parish who were leaving Mull in the year 1821 for Nova Scotia a year after the last child was baptised according to the Kilninian and Kilmore Parish records. Furthermore an original copy of this record had been in the possession of the family of Alexander and Annie Livingston of Skye Mountain, Whycocomagh. Whycocomagh is nearby to Mull River or Mabou and it is my suspicion that Alexander Livington b.1814 was infact a son of John Livingston and Catharine Campbell though no one else is saying this and it has not been proven. It is known that John Livingston Sr. and Catharine Campbell settled with other mull Scotland settler by 1824 in Inverness County, Cape Breton and the settlement became known as Mull River because there were some families from Mull. Others in the past have stated that it was a John Livingston and Mary Campbell of Mull who settled at Mull RIver in 1824 and in later years a tombstone in a local cemetery was erected with that info so inscribed with that information but I suspect that the wife`s name was not Mary but actually have been Catharine.

This is the Mull record that Dr. St. Clair located in the possession of ALexander Livingston of Whycocomagh's family:

"That the bearer hereof John Livingstone and Catharine Campbell his wife our natives of the United Parish of Kilninian and Kilmore in the Island of Mull, County of Argyll in which they have lived since Infancy; that so far as I had access to know they have hitherto maintained an honest and industrious character free of scandal , or any ground of church censure, are members and communicants of the Church of Scotland and may be received into any Christian society whre providence shall order their future lot is this 26th day of April 1821 by
Donald McArthur Minister of Kilninian
Hugh Maclean J.P

There is also information on payment of their passage on the Adventure bound for Pictou (Nova Scotia) and list of the family indicating their are 9 in total dated
Tobermory June 22, 1821
(Tobermory was the main port at Mull)

Based upon the baptisms the Penmore family had 8 children and two adults for a total of ten but it quite conceivable that John and Catharine only had 7 children by the time they left for Nova Scotia. While the family tradition according to Dr. St. Clair is that the family went to PEI first whether that is correct or not does not infalidate any of this family information I dont think. It is also possible that there was some confusion in the family story regarding PEI since old Kate and her sister Annie both married to Mull RIveréWHycocomagh Livingstons were said to be descended from PEI pioneers Donald and Mary Livingston of Lot 65 PEI who settled there in 1806.

Anyways I think this is the John Livingston and Catharine Campbell that we are looking for and three of their sons.

regards,

Donald

[Kyle MacLea]

This family seems to have a close connection with the 9 mile creek Livingstones and I wonder is there anyway this Donald is one of the Nine Mile Creek Donald's? Cousins marrying apparently was quite common back then...my own grandparents on my Dad's side of the family were cousins, so like I said....quite common back then. Donald that would make our families related I believe, since you are related to the 9 mile creek family. Donald what is the sample number for your families DNA in the DNA project? How does it match up with Alexander's DNA?

As mentioned above, all the NS families tested SO FAR are part of this same cluster of Highland Livingstones. And also Donald's family belongs to this cluster as well. The exact marker differences are hard to explain in any brief way, though you can look at this cluster on

http://users.skynet.be/lancaster/Maclea ... %20R1b.htm

You are looking at this cluster: "A Highland line (we are at least sure about the ones with 67 markers, we advise the others to upgrade in order to confirm membership in this family)…" including 74255, 153356, Scott's ancestor is also in this group, although 212128 is not yet listed on that page.

Kyle=

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Kyle and Barry,

The descendant of Donald Livingston of Nine Mile Creek QUeens County PEI of Morvern origin and subsequently Mull is closest to a descendant of my ancestor Miles Livingston a native of Morvern. They would be part of the same general Western Argyll Maclea Livingston DNA group but not that closely related I should think

Scott is closer to two descendant of two Cape Breton settlers John Livingston of Little Judique, Inverness County and JOhn Livingston of Low Point, Cape Breton. One of these JOhn Livingstons named his land grant Staffa which is the name of a scenic Island in Klninian Parish, Mull so it is almost certain he originated from Mull and the other is recorded as being originally from Fort William in Inverness near Argyll but likely has Mull or MOrvern family origins. What I dont know is precisely how close in terms of genetic distANCES between these two and Alex's descendant.

Yes there is indeed a possible connection between pioneer Donald Livingston of Nine Mile Creek Queens COunty PEI and the Mull River family of John LIvingston Jr. and the Whycocomagh family of ALexander Livingston but if it it exists is as stated in the census records that their wifes Catherine maiden name Livingston and Ann maiden Livingston were born in PRince Edward Island possibly to a son of the Donald Livingston of the QUeens County Livingston but I was not able to prove that they were indeed connected to this PEI Livingstone family however as there is no proof. The Nova Scotia census records both JOhn Livingston junior widow in the 1871 and 1881 and ALexs wife Ann Livingston as being born in PEI. This to me then the earliest PEI connection but probably not the only one.

regards,

Donald

[Livingstone_PEI]

Hi All

This is an interesting read and shows the relationship between the Selkirk settlers of the area I live in, and how some of Selkirk's settlers later moved their families to the Middle River area of Cape Breton.

http://www.islandregister.com/1795acampbell.html

Barry

[Canadian Livingstone]

John Livingston and Catharine Campbell of Kilninian Parish, Mull I believe settled in the Mull River/Mabou area of Inverness county, Cape Breton around 1824 and according to one original document from officials in Mull in 1821, was to depart from Kilninian Parish Mull for the port of Pictou, Nova Scotia in 1821. Curiously I have now discovered that there were two John Livingston and Catharine Campbell married in they year 1805 in Kilninian Parish, Mull just to add to the mystery. We had assumed that the John Livingston and CatharineCampbell that settled at Mull River, Cape Breton in the 1820's were John Livingston and Catharine Campbell married December 31, 1805 in Penmore, Kilninian and as they had 8 children baptised in Penmore one would assume these to the be correct parents. It should be noted that there was also a John Levingston of Morvern parish, Morvern and Catharine Campbell married January 22 1805 in Kilninian Parish, Mull. I am pretty certain however that the Livingstons that settled at Mull River, Inverness County Cape Breton and arrived in Nova Scotia from Mull in the early 1820's were residing in Penmore, Kilninian Parish prior to 1821. The baptismal parish records trace the location of this family in a croft at Penmore in North Western Mull from 1805 to the end of 1820 when there are no further baptisms for this family at Penmore recorded. In fact all Livingston records from Penmore cease after 1820 suggesting a departure of all Livingstons from Penmore. I also have questioned as you may or may not know the infomation on the later created tombstone of a John Livingston and Mary Campbell that was created apparently many years after their death based on the notion that a John Livingston and Mary Campbell settled at Mull River in the 1820's. As I have stated in the past there is virtually no original 19th century government records from Inverness County, Cape BReton to back this up.

regards,

Donald