Nova Scotia/PEI Livingstone Research

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Re: Nova Scotia/PEI Livingstone Research

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Sat Apr 28, 2012 7:21 pm

Hi Barry,

I was at one time looking into the possibility that Livingstons arrived on the Polly in 1803 but there is no evidence so far that was the case and were recruited by Lord Selkirk or his agents for the PEI settlement. There were of course Livingstons that arrived in PEI around this time or a few years later but not on a Lord Selkirk charterd vessel for his settlement. Interestingly I noticed a Donald Livingston who arrived in 1806 from Mull who I think may have acquired some land in QUeens County, PEI that had been owned by Lord Selkirk but he settled at Nine Mile Creek, Queens County and was not an 1803 "Selkirk Settler". I would like to see an original copy of that land record.
Regarding Lord Selkirk's settlements in Canada, my great-great-great grandfather Miles Livingston his second wife Jessie (Janet Livingston) eldest son Donald and an apparent cousin also named Donald Livingston a boatbuilder were later in 1812 recruited by one of Lord Selkirks highland agents as an orginal settlement group to travel aboard the Hudsons Bay Company vessel the "Robert Taylor" to Hudsons Bay in the Summer of 1812 and from there southward to Lord Selkirks newly established Red River Colony in present day Winnipeg, Manitoba. Fortunately for me the Red River Colony kept a detailed collection of records and while most of Lord Selkirks papers were destroyed in a fire, most of them were copied in the early 1900's by an official from the Canadian Archives before the fire. While the Red River Colony records stated that my ancestor Miles Livingston originated from Mull, this was based on the fact that he travelled with a large party originating from the port of Tobermory, Mull which included a number of Mull Macleans. Both Miles and the Red RIver Colony boatbuilder Donald Livingstone who accompanied him on the vessel Robert Taylor in the SUmmer of 1812 ,state in their own suviving records I have located that they were "natives of Morvern" parish Argyllshire. I guess I should celebrate this summer the 200th anniversary of my ancestors arrival in Canada.

regards,

Donald
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Re: Nova Scotia/PEI Livingstone Research

Postby Livingstone_PEI » Fri May 25, 2012 3:40 am

Hi All

I wanted to add this to this thread because it likely is an important piece of information for this.

I was at the archives the other day and took some time to go through the Livingstone family file and noticed an excerpt from one of Dr. Jim St. Clair's books. Regarding the John and Catherine Livingstone of Mull River, it lists their two oldest children as being born on Prince Edward Island. Duncan born 1841 and Mary born 1844. If John of Mull River and Colin, my ancestor, are related it is intriguing that John had children born on PEI and Colin's children were all born in Nova Scotia. So it looks like John left PEI around 1844 and Colin left Cape Breton after 1855 based on the birthdates of their children. This could answer the question of how John ended up with a wife from PEI.

Barry
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Re: Nova Scotia/PEI Livingstone Research

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Sat May 26, 2012 11:02 pm

Hi Barry,
If that is John Livingston Jr. and old Kate of Mull River that would be very interesting. I would like to take a look a that. Makes sense that he went to PEI and met old Kate who was born in the early 1800's and who according to one source was connected to Old Donald Livingstone and nine mile creek, Queens County, PEI livingstons. No one however has found proof of her connection that family. My sense though is she and her sister Ann who is said to have married ALexander Livingstone of WHycocomagh may have been grandchildren of pioneer Donald Livngston born 1752 who settled at Nine Mile Creek Queens County PEI in the early 1800's Cant prove it though. Dr. St. Clair told me his mother attended Old Kate's funeral around 1907. She was quite old when she died. SOme of the locals thought she was a witch.

regards.

Donald
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Re: Nova Scotia/PEI Livingstone Research

Postby Livingstone_PEI » Mon May 28, 2012 1:44 pm

Hi Donald

Someday this week I should be able to get to the archives and I will try to get a copy of this. I seem to think the two Livingston sisters may have come from a different family. Dr. St. Clair speculated that the sisters came from 9 mile creek, but I think it is likely he wasn't aware of these other Livingston families on PEI and assumed there was only one family. I know he wasn't aware of my family for sure. I think they are the daughters of John Livingston of Georgetown. I know John had three daughters and have found that one daughter was named Margaret and she married M. James Allen. I think this marriage happened around 1827, but the date of the marriage is not clear. That leaves two daughters left and the daughters were not named in their mother's will. I will keep hunting on this and hopefully will come across something.

Barry
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Re: Nova Scotia/PEI Livingstone Research

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Mon May 28, 2012 9:42 pm

Hi Barry,

Dont know how or why he reached that conclusion but I think it was because a relative may have told him this long ago. It could be correct or not I dont really have enough information to draw any conclusion at this point in time. It is an interesting theory none the less. Certainly the NIne Mile Creek famiy was very large family as old Donald LIvingston b. abt. 1750 brought several sons and daughters with him and they brought their wives with them. I havent been able to link either old Kate or Ann to these families but thought they might be old Donald grandaughter born after the family arrived around 1806 in PEI. But dont really know. Dr. St. Clair is into his eighties I believe and has been researching Cape Breton families for many years. His mother knew Catharine herself and went to her funeral. Dr. St. Clairs own family or relatives of old Kate or Ann, wife of Alexander of Whycocomagh may have mentioned something about QUeens County, PEI Livingstons, but I am not sure of the specifics and I dont think specifics were known as to family tree in PEI. That all that I learned from Dr. St. Clair on that family connection. The Census records for both old Kate and Ann Livingston verify that were born in PEI. So at least we know that it is more than a family tale of speculation. They really were from a PEI Livingstone family for sure and were said to be sisters though Dr. St. Clair noted that there was a significant age difference between JOhn Livingston Juniors wife old Kate of Mull River who was born abt. 1807 or something like and died around 1907 and Ann Livington wife of ALexander Livingston of neighbouring Whycocomagh, Skye Mountain. Dr. St. Clair knows quite about about the Mull River and neighbouring Whycocomagh families having been related to these families and known some of their kin personally. His mother attended the wake of Old Kate. I think that was in 1907. I forgot to ask him if had located a obituary for her. She was a very interesting local figure. Quite old and thought to be a witch by some. Dr. St. Clair told me some stories of strange occurances that happened in her house during her wake. Would make for a good Stephen King short story I should think except that instead of happening in Maine as many of his stories it would be set in Cape Breton.

Dr. St. Clairs work was essentiall groundwork for my research of Mull River and Whycocomagh Livingstons and with his work I have taken it step further examing some interesting possiblities suggested by clues within his research but not formally stated in his notes. Firstly that the Alexander Livington of Whycocomagh and John Livingston JR. of neighbouring Mull RIver were brothers. While Dr. St. Clair did not state this mainly cause he could find not evidence of this at the time of his research, I think I found clues in Dr. St. Clairs own research and that of my own more recent research that suggests the likelihood that both John Livingston Jr. borrn in the early 1800's in Mull, Scotland and Alexander born in the early 1800s apparently also in Mull Scotland were in fact sons of the pioneer Livingston settler John LIvingston Sr. from Mull who settled at Mull RIver in the 1820's after arriving in Nova Scotia around 1821. ANother family that apparently settled around the same time at the Mull River, Inverness County CB area was a Campbell family from Mull connected to John Livingston Sr. through his wife Catharine Campbell. While some of Dr. St. Clair and some other research on the Mull River/Mabou area differs with mine in regards to the family of JOhn LIvingston Sr. of Mull, it was Dr. St. Clairs copy of emigration record from 1821 Mull Scotland at one time in the posssesion of ALexander Livingston of Whycocomagh family was the clincher for me and I realized that someone long ago apparently before Dr. St. Clair had connected another JOhn Liivngston family from Mull with those who resided at Mull River in the early 1800's. When Dr.St. Clair sends me this 1821 document in which Mull officials are mentionging that a John Livingston and Catharine Campbell of Kilninian Parish, Mull are leaving with their 7 children, I soon realized that it could only be the John Livingston and Catharine Campbell who had 8 children between 1800 and end of 1821 and that the baptismal entries ended as if they had left the parish for the New World. The Parish record while recording 8 children did not throw me off and one could have easily passed away by the time their departure aboard ship for the port of Pictou in Nova Scotia in 1821. Secondly this parish baptismal list for this Penmore, Kilninian Parish family recorded an eldest son John Jr., as well as amazingly a son ALexander and Colin baptised and apparently born around same time as Alexander of Whycocomagh and your ancestor Colin. With Dr. St. Clair actually stating in a message to me that the old Whycocomagh Livingstons actually were the source of this old 1821 Document from Mull, Scotland and it was an original document that had been in the family posssession I realize we really some substantial evidence that was in fact information on the correct family that had actually settled at Mull River. Though this did ofcourse challenge some of the earliest research that had been done before Dr. St. Clair on this family, the fact that had this document, I made the case to him that it was likely a JOhn Livington and Catharine Campbell from Penmore, Kilninian Parish, Mull and their seven children three of which were brothers JOhn, ALexander and Colin who settled at Mull River around 1824. WHile I am not certain he was entirely certain that I was correct, he did agree with me in a message that it made sense the original pioneers of Mull River were John Livingston and Catharine Campbell and he was sure about the wife being Mary Campbell though some one at much later date erected a cemtery stone marking the original Mull RIver as JOhn Livingston Sr. and Mary Campbell. I have stated to Dr. St. Clair I believe this earlier Mabou researcher before him had identified the wrong Kilninian Parish, Mull family has having settled at Mull River in 1824. I think the copy of the Mull emigration record that was Dr. St. Clairs possession and in the possession of Alexander of Whycocomaghs family clearly indicates that it was JOhn LIvingston and Catharine Campbell of Kilninian Parish, Mull settled at Mull River with about 7 children. From 1800 to 1821 they had about 8 children but clearly one died before they left Penmore, Kilninian Parish, Mull in 1821 and probably some did not reach adulthood or moved away from Mull River in the years that followed their settlement from Mull RIver. In Scotland there were four maybe five sons but in our research we only know of the possiblity of three sons in the Mull River/Whycocomagh area John Jr. who married old Kate, Mull RIver farmer, Alexander who according to Dr. St. Clair married Kates younger sister and your ancestor Colin whose obituary info from his family leads us to suspect a likely family connection to ALexander. With by lucky chance a descendant of Alexander of Whycocomagh is a participant in the DNA project we know have identifed Alexander and family as having similar DNA characteristics of a group of several highland Western Argyllshire Livingstons a number of whom were known to have roots in Kilninian Parish, Mull. So things are in place at any time for one of your cousins or someone decended from John Llivingston and old Kate to be tested. I am hoping we can find a direct Livingston descendant of John Livingston JR. and Old Kate Livingston who would interesting in participating in the DNA project. Then we really could be able to determine whether my theory regarding a family connection between John, Alexander and Colin LIvingston is likely correct. What a lucky break that we have participation from Alexander's descendant. That is definite a first step in helping to sort out the origins of your Livingston family in Cape BReton.

regards,

Donald
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Re: Nova Scotia/PEI Livingstone Research

Postby Livingstone_PEI » Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:58 pm

Hi Donald

I have received our DNA kit and the DNA sample will be taken at the reunion in August. I will be sending it out in the mail as soon as I can. I can hardly wait to see the results of this sample. I hope we are right or back to the drawing board. There will be other relatives at the reunion who have been doing their own family research, so I am looking forward to comparing notes with them.

Barry
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Re: Nova Scotia/PEI Livingstone Research

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:47 pm

Hi Barry,

Thats great news.
Interesting to see if these two Livingston families which have documentation indicating Whycocomagh, Cape Breton origin are related. Lets keep our fingers crossed.
regards,

Donald
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Re: Nova Scotia/PEI Livingstone Research

Postby Livingstone_PEI » Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:54 am

Hi All

I have been to the archives in Charlottetown and have copied this out of the Family file the archives have on Livingston's. Someone submitted this to the family file, but the archives does not have the entire book. I believe this is chapter two and Dr. Jim St. Clair either wrote the book it came from or had something to do with the book. There was not enough information to be able to trace the source. It reads as follows:

"Amongst the early settlers in the Upper Southeast Mabou, (Now called Mull River) from the Isle of Mull, Scotland, was John Livingston. (The name is sometimes spelled with a final e – Livingstone). He arrived in the Mull River a few years after the other settlers from Mull as he had lived elsewhere for several years before he settled here in 1824. It would appear from the records as though others of the name Livingston also lived in the area for a year or more before going elsewhere. John Livingston was a native of Mull, Scotland and a relative of Dr. David Livingston of Africa fame. He was married to Catherine (sometimes called Mary) a sister of Allan Campbell and Grace MacColl of Teang, Mull. John Livingston died in the year 1840.

I
John b. 1800, Isle of Mull, d. 1848 Mull River, M. Kate Livingstone (1808 – 1912) of PEI, a sister of Annie (Livingston) Livingston, wife of Alex Livingston of Skye Mountain, Inv. Co. The PEI Livingstons lived at Nine Mile Creek. Their issue:

1.
Duncan b. PEI, 1841, d. Springhill, NS, m. Mary MacDonald of Keppoch, Antigonish Co. a daughter of Alexander (Bard na Ceapoch) and Mary (MacLean) MacDonald. One son: John William Livingstone m. with a large family in Springhill, NS.

2. Mary b. PEI, 1844, d. Boston Mass., unmarried in 1921."

I think what is interesting here is the statement about the Island Livingston's being from Nine Mile Creek. It is worded in such a way as it looks like they are the only Livingston's on PEI. From my research there are four separate groups of Livingstons.

1. The Colonsay group in the Murray River and Murray Harbour area
2. The Livingstons in the Three Rivers area who first showup in 1803 on land conveyance records.
3. The lots 31 and 65 group of Livingstons researched by John Collins.
4. Colin Livingston who moved his family from Cape Breton to Forest Hill in 1865.

Also of note are the two Livingston men who showup in the 1841 PEI census who will be in my next post. They may or may not be in the groups above. Knowing that John of Mull River had children in 1841 and 1844 on PEI opens up other possibilities.

1. Alex Livingston - Lot 54
2. John Livingston - Lot 60


I don't believe the other groups of Livingstons were taken into consideration in this published work.

This document sure does start you wondering about this family and the connections that they may have had with PEI. It is apparent that John of Mull River lived on PEI for at least four years. It states his father John died in 1840. I wish I knew the sources of this book.

Barry
Last edited by Livingstone_PEI on Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Nova Scotia/PEI Livingstone Research

Postby Livingstone_PEI » Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:38 pm

Now that we know that John had children on PEI in 1841 and 1844, we know there is a strong PEI connection with this family. Below is the 1841 census for any Livingstons of interest. Please understand part of the census documents did not survive. I believe the most important documents regarding this research still exist which include lot 60, lot 65, lot 31, lot 55, and lot 54. Below are the census document I alluded to in my last post.



Name of Township, Town, or Royalty. 60
Name of the head of each Family. John Livingston
Trade or Occupation. Farmer
Males: Under 16 years of age. 1 Females: Under 16 years of age. 1
Males: From 16 to 45. 1 Females: From 16 to 45. 1
Males: From 45 to 60. 0 Females: From 45 to 60. 0
Males: Upwards of 60. 0 Females: Upwards of 60. 0
Number of Deaf and Dumb in each family. 0 Number of Blind in each family. 0
Number of Insane in each family. 0 Total number in each family (including Servants and Apprentices). 4
Number of persons in each family, in connexion with the Church of England. 0
Number of persons in each family, in connexion with the Church of Scotland. 4
Number of persons in each family, being Presbyterian, in connexion with the Presbytery of P.E. Island. 0
Number of Roman Catholics in each family. 0
Number of Methodists in each family. 0
Number of Baptists in each family. 0
Number of persons in each family, of any other denomination. 0
Number of acres held by each family in fee simple.
Number of acres of Land held by each family by Leasehold. 75
Number of acres held by each family by written demises. 0
Number of acres held by each family by verbal Agreements. 0
Number of acres held by each family as Occupants, being neither Freeholders or Tenants. 0
Number of years of term of Lease expired. 2
Number of years of term of Lease. 999
AMOUNT OF RENT PAID BY EACH FAMILY
Present Rent paid by each Family per acre. (£ / s / d)
Increasing Rent per acre. (£ / s / d)
Full Rent, & what year it comes to full rent
Rent in Sterling (£ / s / d) 3/15/0
Rent in Currency (£ / s / d)
QUALITY OF LAND
If 1st best quality: 0 / If 2d best quality: 0 / If 3rd best quality: 0
Number of persons whose passage was paid by Proprietors,
and the date of their arrival in this Colony,
and age of such person on his arrival.

Number of persons who repaid their passage money to the Proprietors or their Agents. 0
Number of persons who paid their own passage. 0
Number of acres of arable Land held by each family. 6
PRODUCE RAISED BY EACH FAMILY DURING THE LAST YEAR
Number of Bushels of Wheat. 0 Number of Bushels Barley. 4
Number of Bushels Oats. 27 Number of Bushels Potatoes. 120
Number of Horses owned by each family. 0 Number of Neat Cattle owned by each family. 3
Number of Sheep owned by each family. 5 Number of Hogs owned by each family. 0
Number of persons in each family being natives of England. 0
Number of persons in each family natives of Scotland. 2
Number of persons in each family being natives of Ireland. 0
Number of persons in each family being natives of this Island. 2
Number of persons in each family being natives of the British Colonies. 0
Number of persons in each family being natives of other Colonies. 0
*******************************************************************************************************************************

I now live in lot 60 and apparently John Livingston moved somewhere else sometime after this census. I have not found any evidence of a Livingston family in my research living in lot 60, so apparently they moved. I live in lot 60 now in Flat River.

One other census document that should be mentioned for 1841 is an Alex Livingston living in lot 54. I found a baptismal record for a child recorded as John Lavingston born in 1842 to Alexander Lavingston and Mary Sigsworth of St. Georges which is in lot 54. This doesn't seem to fit into the puzzle. There is no record of Alex Lavingston in later records past the birthdate of his son.

So I guess the bottomline is we have a definite connection to PEI now for John in the 1841 to 1842 time and if Dr. St. Clair's recorded birthdates are correct I now only have to find other evidence of him being here at that time. I have alot of work on this family.
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Re: Nova Scotia/PEI Livingstone Research

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:44 pm

Hi Barry,

It does make sense that John Livingston Jr. may well have married his wife old Kate in PEI before eventually returning to Mull River where he lived with his Kate and family until he died sometime before 1860. Its does seem a plausible scenario that John for whatever reason left Mull River Cape Breton in the 1840's or so and met Catharine in PEI where they wed and lived for some time before returning to the Mull RIver family homestead of his father and MOther I would assume. Dr, St, Clair there are no land records for this farm and perhaps in the 1824 period his parents joined the Campbell relatives in the Mull River, Inverness County, Cape Breton area and were squatters and eventualy the land became their own.

The census records for Old Kate confirm that she was indeed born in PEI. Dr. St. Clair had information that Old Kate and her sister Annie also born in PEI was descended from the old 9 mile Creek, QUeen County, PEI family. Something to be aware following the DNA Test is that we have as previously mentioned a descendant of Alex of Whycocomagh tested but as well as descendant of the Nine Mile Creek, Queens County, PEI Livingstons. They are all from the same highland Maclea Livingstone ancestral group which we refer to as the Parker Livingston group but the Wycocomagh Livingstons of Cape Breton and the Nine MIle Creek Queens County PEI Livingstons arent closely related or cousins according to the DNA results. That being said there is good chance that the Wycocomagh Livingstons will be a close match to your Livingston family and that is what I am hoping the test results to prove. I wasnt certain you were aware that there was 9 mile creek Livingston descendant in the project for some time now and just wanted to touch base with you that. I am looking forward to the results with your Livingstons.

SO the first phase of this in my mind is through your DNA testing of your cousin to prove a family connection to family of ALex of Whycocomagh and further on I am hoping we can establish through DNA testing a family connection between John Livingston Jr. of Mull River which I have suspected for reasons I mentioned in previous posting a while back. We do not as yet have a descendant of John Livingston Jr. of Mull River in the project that is to say a descendant of John jr. and old Kate of Mull River. But hopefully someday. |Then we can find out for certain whether Alex, Colin of Whyccomagh and John Jr of Mull River were brothers as I suspect.
Yes many of the Livingstons that settled in Nova Scotia and PEI it would seem have a Mull, Argyllshire, Scotland origin or neighbouring Morvern.
Hope you continue to have a pleasant summer. Been very hot hasn't it?
regards,

Donald

regards,

Donald
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