Nova Scotia/PEI Livingstone Research

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Re: Nova Scotia/PEI Livingstone Research

Postby Livingstone_PEI » Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:29 pm

Yes....just going to the post office to mail the DNA sample out now. I went to the post office yesterday and apparently it is a civic holiday everywhere else in Canada except here, but the post office was closed.

It has been very hot here. The reunion on the weekend was bearable and we had about 130 Livingstone relatives present and many of them from Ontario, I had never met before and even some here on PEI, so it was really fun. Only problem is I was the main organizer, so I didn't have enough time to talk to people. I was talking to one of my relatives from Ontario and she was saying that her father always claimed we had a Dr. Livingstone connection. I explained it is unlikely, but she said her father was pretty sure. Her father said we were related through the doctor's brother, but I explained that our ancestor would be about the same age as the doctor, since Colin was born in 1818. Her father passed away in November and he would have been 99 years old this Summer and had been excited to attend but never made it. We did have one descendant of Angus' brother John contact us and since she was 90 years old we invited her to join us. It was a great time and now I only have to wait for the results of the test. We had to substitute the sample donor though. One of my uncles declined on the DNA test and the other ended up being ill over the course of the reunion, so I had to go with the next younger generation.

My number for our kit is #244055 so I am looking forward to it. No I didn't know we had a sample from the Nine Mile Creek Livingstons so that is great!

Barry
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Re: Nova Scotia/PEI Livingstone Research

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:01 pm

Hi Barry,
I cant tell you how exited I am by this news that things are moving forward and that within a few weeks we will be able to determine if your Livingstons and the other Whycocomagh Livingstons are related. If so then this means that farmer Alexander Livingston b. 1814 in Mull Scotland farmer Skye Mountain, Whycocomagh, Cape BReton was the brother of Colin which also would match them to the family group of John Livingston and Catharine Campbell of Mull who according to the Kilninian Parish Mull records had among their children born before the year 1821, a son Alexander baptised 1814 and a son Colin baptised around 1817 I think it was. THen after 1821 they disappeared from parish records presumingly because they were the John Livingston and Catharine Campbell family that according to a document stated by Dr. St. Clair was for many years in the posssession of the Whycocomagh Livngston family and signed by Mull Scotland officials noting the families departure to Nova Scotia in 1821.
So if the two families are related if will help to prove much. I have checked and rechecked the family information regarding the descendant of Alexander of Whycocomagh who is a participant in our DNA project and his ancestral line seems to be well documented and clearly connects him to kin of ALexander of Whycocomagh who left Cape BReton for the States as he stated. And your ancestors obituary created by his family clearly states that Colin was also of Whycocomagh. So I shall keep my fingers crossed that we can prove a family connection. Thanks for making this happen.

Yes we have made the DNA Project has had some good participation from some descendants of Cape Breton and PEI Livingstons but we dont as yet have a descendant of Angus Livingston of Bouldelardie, Victoria County, Cape BReton or John Livingston Jr. of Mull River, Mabou, Inverness County, Cape Breton in the project which would be the next logical step after your cousin.

That John Livingston from the 1841 Cenus at Royal is interesting. They state the female age 16 to 45 was born in Scotland however so I think perhaps it may not be old Kate and her husband John though I agree with you that the time period and approximate age and number of children made them a possible candidate. Of course maybe the census taker made a mistake regarding old Kate and her place of birth. The 1841 census indicates two adults born in Scotland and two children born in PEI if I am understanding correctly.

Sorry to say it is unlikely your Livingstons were related to Dr. Livingstone. This is just a hunch, but i expect your Livingstons are part of a general group of Maclea Livingstons which included my highland Maclea Livingstons from Movern and neighbouring Mull of which a number of Livingstons from Cape BReton and PEi fall into referred to by the Society as the Parker Livingston Group. Indeed my ancestor Miles Livingston b.1775 in Morvern Parish, Argyllshire would have likely settled in Cape Breton or PEi had not an agent of Lord Selkirk in 1812 persuaded him as a boatbuilder to join a group of highland settlers including an apparent Livingston cousin and fellow boatbuilder to settle in Lord Selkirks Red River Colony in what is present day Winnipeg, Manitoba. By 1815 my great-great-great grandfather Miles Livingston and family had left the settlement for Upper Canada where he received a land grant in 1819 in Esquesing Township, Halton County, ONtario with other settlers of Scottish origin.

Dr. Livingstones family group however are not part of this Parker Livingston Mull-Morvern DNA group curiously enough. THe earliest know roots of Dr. Livingstones family were in the 18th century were in the Mull area to be sure but in terms of DNA this group of Livingstons is actually a very unique Livingston family group with some families connected to the Isle of Islay and neighbouring Northern Ireland. Dr. Livingstone does not state where his family lived before the Isle of Ulva near Mull and the parish records for the family do not exist before the 1770's in Mull but it seems apparent that the family came from somewhere else in Argyllshire. Where that was has been subject of some debate by local Argyllshire historians and Livingstone researchers for some time now. Whereever Dr. Livingstones came from I do not believe that they resided for centuries on the isle of Ulva or even neighbouring mull as likely did our Maclea Livingstone ancestors. But where? THe DNA results are providing me with a few interesting and unexpected possibilities regarding Dr. Livingstone's ancestral origins.

regarding John Livingston and old Kate I will check my PEI Livingston information to see what Dr. St. Clair sent me regarding the children of old Kate and John Livingston. I think I have more info on ALexander of Whycocomaghs family but I do have some info on old kates children I think he passed on to me. I asked him as many questions at the time regarding the Mull River and Whycocomagh family that came to mind at the time. There were some things that were just not known however by the Doctor regarding a possible family connection between the Mull RIver and Whycocomagh families though that document from Mull 1821 which I have a typed copy of seems to me very convincing they are one family. but the DNA may well provide us some answers we are seeking.

regards,

Donald
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Re: Nova Scotia/PEI Livingstone Research

Postby sandylivingston » Sat Sep 01, 2012 11:06 pm

Livingstone_PEI wrote:Hi All

I have been to the archives in Charlottetown and have copied this out of the Family file the archives have on Livingston's. Someone submitted this to the family file, but the archives does not have the entire book. I believe this is chapter two and Dr. Jim St. Clair either wrote the book it came from or had something to do with the book. There was not enough information to be able to trace the source. It reads as follows:

"Amongst the early settlers in the Upper Southeast Mabou, (Now called Mull River) from the Isle of Mull, Scotland, was John Livingston. (The name is sometimes spelled with a final e – Livingstone). He arrived in the Mull River a few years after the other settlers from Mull as he had lived elsewhere for several years before he settled here in 1824. It would appear from the records as though others of the name Livingston also lived in the area for a year or more before going elsewhere. John Livingston was a native of Mull, Scotland and a relative of Dr. David Livingston of Africa fame. He was married to Catherine (sometimes called Mary) a sister of Allan Campbell and Grace MacColl of Teang, Mull. John Livingston died in the year 1840.

I
John b. 1800, Isle of Mull, d. 1848 Mull River, M. Kate Livingstone (1808 – 1912) of PEI, a sister of Annie (Livingston) Livingston, wife of Alex Livingston of Skye Mountain, Inv. Co. The PEI Livingstons lived at Nine Mile Creek. Their issue:

1.
Duncan b. PEI, 1841, d. Springhill, NS, m. Mary MacDonald of Keppoch, Antigonish Co. a daughter of Alexander (Bard na Ceapoch) and Mary (MacLean) MacDonald. One son: John William Livingstone m. with a large family in Springhill, NS.

2. Mary b. PEI, 1844, d. Boston Mass., unmarried in 1921."

I think what is interesting here is the statement about the Island Livingston's being from Nine Mile Creek. It is worded in such a way as it looks like they are the only Livingston's on PEI. From my research there are four separate groups of Livingstons.

1. The Colonsay group in the Murray River and Murray Harbour area
2. The Livingstons in the Three Rivers area who first showup in 1803 on land conveyance records.
3. The lots 31 and 65 group of Livingstons researched by John Collins.
4. Colin Livingston who moved his family from Cape Breton to Forest Hill in 1865.

Also of note are the two Livingston men who showup in the 1841 PEI census who will be in my next post. They may or may not be in the groups above. Knowing that John of Mull River had children in 1841 and 1844 on PEI opens up other possibilities.

1. Alex Livingston - Lot 54
2. John Livingston - Lot 60


I don't believe the other groups of Livingstons were taken into consideration in this published work.

This document sure does start you wondering about this family and the connections that they may have had with PEI. It is apparent that John of Mull River lived on PEI for at least four years. It states his father John died in 1840. I wish I knew the sources of this book.

Barry


http://www.mullgenealogy.co.uk/MullSearch.ASP?indv_no=31772
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Re: Nova Scotia/PEI Livingstone Research ( DNA)

Postby sandylivingston » Sat Sep 01, 2012 11:15 pm

hi! can you send me some info on the DNA project. John Sr my ggg grandfather, John Jr my gg grandfather, Duncan my g grandfather, John Hugh my grandfather, Alexander Duncan my father. I'm John Alexander ( Sandy ) and for what its worth my son is Alexander Duncan ( Sandy ) and my grandson is Chase Alexander, seems old habits are hard to break.
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Re: Nova Scotia/PEI Livingstone Research

Postby sandylivingston » Sat Sep 01, 2012 11:36 pm

sandylivingston wrote:
Livingstone_PEI wrote:Hi All

I have been to the archives in Charlottetown and have copied this out of the Family file the archives have on Livingston's. Someone submitted this to the family file, but the archives does not have the entire book. I believe this is chapter two and Dr. Jim St. Clair either wrote the book it came from or had something to do with the book. There was not enough information to be able to trace the source. It reads as follows:

"Amongst the early settlers in the Upper Southeast Mabou, (Now called Mull River) from the Isle of Mull, Scotland, was John Livingston. (The name is sometimes spelled with a final e – Livingstone). He arrived in the Mull River a few years after the other settlers from Mull as he had lived elsewhere for several years before he settled here in 1824. It would appear from the records as though others of the name Livingston also lived in the area for a year or more before going elsewhere. John Livingston was a native of Mull, Scotland and a relative of Dr. David Livingston of Africa fame. He was married to Catherine (sometimes called Mary) a sister of Allan Campbell and Grace MacColl of Teang, Mull. John Livingston died in the year 1840.

I
John b. 1800, Isle of Mull, d. 1848 Mull River, M. Kate Livingstone (1808 – 1912) of PEI, a sister of Annie (Livingston) Livingston, wife of Alex Livingston of Skye Mountain, Inv. Co. The PEI Livingstons lived at Nine Mile Creek. Their issue:

1.
Duncan b. PEI, 1841, d. Springhill, NS, m. Mary MacDonald of Keppoch, Antigonish Co. a daughter of Alexander (Bard na Ceapoch) and Mary (MacLean) MacDonald. One son: John William Livingstone m. with a large family in Springhill, NS.

2. Mary b. PEI, 1844, d. Boston Mass., unmarried in 1921."

I think what is interesting here is the statement about the Island Livingston's being from Nine Mile Creek. It is worded in such a way as it looks like they are the only Livingston's on PEI. From my research there are four separate groups of Livingstons.

1. The Colonsay group in the Murray River and Murray Harbour area
2. The Livingstons in the Three Rivers area who first showup in 1803 on land conveyance records.
3. The lots 31 and 65 group of Livingstons researched by John Collins.
4. Colin Livingston who moved his family from Cape Breton to Forest Hill in 1865.

Also of note are the two Livingston men who showup in the 1841 PEI census who will be in my next post. They may or may not be in the groups above. Knowing that John of Mull River had children in 1841 and 1844 on PEI opens up other possibilities.

1. Alex Livingston - Lot 54
2. John Livingston - Lot 60


I don't believe the other groups of Livingstons were taken into consideration in this published work.

This document sure does start you wondering about this family and the connections that they may have had with PEI. It is apparent that John of Mull River lived on PEI for at least four years. It states his father John died in 1840. I wish I knew the sources of this book.

Barry


http://www.mullgenealogy.co.uk/MullSearch.ASP?indv_no=31772


www.mullgenealogy.co.uk indicates John Jr was born in 1808 baptized 27 June 1808 not 1800. John Sr and Catherine were married 31 Dec 1805. Duncan was probably not born in PEI as the family was in Mull River since 1828. There was never a John William Livngston in Springhill but my grandfather John Hugh, son of Duncan Livingston and Mary MacDonald.
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Re: Nova Scotia/PEI Livingstone Research

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Sun Sep 02, 2012 3:39 am

Hi Sandy,

I believe that the original earlier Cape Breton information that John Livingston Jr. of Mabou/ Mull River was born in 1800 may not ultimately be accurate. I bellieve that a Penmore, Kilninian Parish, Mull Livingston family of John Livingston and Catharine Campbell were the ones that settled at MUll RIver, Inverness County, Cape BReton a few years after 1821. I believe the neighbouring WHycocomagh Livingstons had the original Mull Scotland 1821 docucument by Mull officials on the departure of John and Catharine Campbell that provides a clue that the Mull River and neighbouring Whycocomagh Livingston farmers in the mid 1800's were in fact brothers and connected to a PEnmore, Kilninian and Kilmore Parish John Livingston and Catharine Campbell that settled at Mull RIver a few years after 1821. I should note this goes against the information published earlier on the Mabou/Mull River families. I am the first to suggest that John Livingston Jr. and Whycocomagh Livingston farmer Alexander Livingston b. 1814 were brothers. But as I said there are at least two good clues that led me to conclude the possibility of this.

1. I have a John Livingston Jr. of Mull RIver born abt. 1800 or 1808. Nearby at Whycocomagh we have ALexander Livingston born 1814 and apparently accoriding to a obituary from PEI prior to the 1860's a Colin Livingston of Whycocomagh born abt. 1817. We know now that John Livingston JR. was almost certainly a son of John Livingston Sr. and Catharine Campbell of Kilninian Parish, Mull who left Scotland around 1821. the parish records for a John Livingston and Catharine Campbell of Penmore, Kilninian Parish Mull include an eldest son John born abt. 1808, a son Donald, and most telling a son Alexander baptised in 1814 and sure enough a son Colin baptised around 1817. The baptismal dates for the PEnmore ALexander and Colin are close match to the estimated birth date from the Canadian records of Alexander Livingston and Colin Livingston who resided in Whycocomagh, Cape Breton which makes me think it cant be coincidence.

2. No 2 for me very convincing is that Mull River area historian James St. Clair told me of old original Mull Scotland document that for many years was in the possession of the old Whycocomagh Livingston family of ALexander Livingston which was signed by Mull officials and statED THAT a John Livingston and Catharine Campbell and seven children had paid their passage and were going to the Port of Pictou, Nova Scotia in the year 1821. ANd interestly the baptismal records for the above mentioned John Livingston and Catharine Campbell whose children include John, Alexander and Colin Livingston end at the end of the year 1820 as if they had left Mull around 1821 or thereabouts.

But this is just a theory without absolute proof. But there is a way through DNA testing of clearly indentified descendants of John Livingston jr of Mull RIver, ALexander Livingston b. 1814 farmer of Skye Mountain, WHycocomagh, and Colin Livingston b. 1817 of PEi said to be in his obitiruary formerly of WHycocomagh. With the testing of a descendant of Alexander and now most recently the testing of a descendant of Colin Livingston we are getting closer I am hoping to resolve this family mystery regarding the possible connection between the Mull River and neighbouring Whycocomagh Livingston familes. Kyle our CLan Maclea Livingstone Society Clan Commissioner for North America is also a Coordinator of the Clan Society DNA project and I will get him to provide you with more info on the Livingstone DNA Project if you like. If all these Livingstons are a match then this would back the notion that you all are connected ancestrally to John Livingston and Catharine Campbell of Penmore, Kilninian Parish, Mull who left Scotland in 1821. I have the name of ship and a type written copy of the original 1821 document I print in later posting you may find quite interesting. Unfortunately I dont know what happened to the original document that was in the possession of the whycocomagh Livingstons but am fortunate at least to have the information that was on that document as it was written in 1821 for decendants of John Livingston and Catharine Campbell to be aware of. It seems to me that the only reason the old Whycocomagh, Cape Breton Livingston family had that 1821 document annoucning the departure of John Livingson, Catharine Campbell and their seven surviving children out of 8 was that old Alexander had been given this document by his parents John Livingston and Catharine CAMPBELL. It was my understanding from Dr. St. Clair it was an original document that only the family would have known abouit and had a copy of given to John and Catharine Campbell apparently before they board the ship to Nova Scotia in 1821. I appreciate your interest in this project and in helping us solve this Cape Breton Livingston family mystery.

regards,

Donald
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Re: Nova Scotia/PEI Livingstone Research

Postby Livingstone_PEI » Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:50 pm

The DNA testing results for Colin Livingston, born 1818 in Scotland has been completed. It has been proven that Colin's closest match in the DNA project is Alexander Livingston born 1814 in Scotland and settled in the Whycocomagh area in 1823, therabouts. This is what was speculated and it is great that it is now proven. It is very likely they were brothers and with the evidence we have already gathered, I think it is now a proven fact. Donald may want to add more information regarding the results.

Barry
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Re: Nova Scotia/PEI Livingstone Research

Postby Livingstone_PEI » Thu Sep 20, 2012 4:40 pm

After everyone has carefully looked at the results, it is apparent that the evidence is not as apparent as first thought. We are going to require further DNA samples from the Mull River branch or even from other members of my family, to be able to feel more confident in proving that Alexander and Colin were indeed brothers. I am still optimistic though, we have one test completed and the results were very interesting. It is very probable there is a relation to Alexander and Colin is from the same family group (Livingston/Parker). I would have been really disappointed if he was from Ireland or something really bizarre. Well the hunt goes on :)

Barry
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Re: Nova Scotia/PEI Livingstone Research

Postby Kyle MacLea » Thu Sep 20, 2012 10:08 pm

Hi Barry,

100% sure they are closely related within the Western Argyll group of Livingston/es we've called "Livingstone/Parker."

The interpretation of whether they are brothers or not is something I'd like to elaborate on and will do so further by email soon.

Basically, there is some statistical debating going on--that they could be brothers is certain based on current evidence. That they ARE brothers cannot be conclusively proven just on the basis of this information. I'll elaborate on why later.

Kyle=
Kyle S. MacLea
Clan Society Life Member; DNA Project Co-Admin
New Hampshire, USA
kyle -dot- maclea -at- gmail -dot- com
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Re: Nova Scotia/PEI Livingstone Research

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Fri Sep 21, 2012 2:25 am

Hi Kyle,
Whatever the real significance of the results it is a great opportunity to have a descendant of ALexander Livingston, Colin Livingston and John Livingston Jr. of Inverness County, Cape Breton working with us to try and solve this mystery. And infact it is already clear there was some sort of Mull Scotland Livingston family connection happening in this part of Cape Breton.

regards,

Donald
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