North Carolina Livingstons

[Alan Livingston]

Donald,

here is a copy of your post dated July 21, 2009 on page one of this "NC Livingstons" thread:

'Hi Jewel,

Through the help of Jeanne Parker whose family is involved in the DNA project I think we have figured out David Duncan Livingston's ancestry.

There is no indication of what County his ancestors came from as of yet but the story goes that in the late 1700's six brothers left Scotland for America and one of the brother a Duncan Livingston settled in Richmond County, North Carolina where he married Annie McLean and they had three sons John, Charles and Hugh. It is understood that the majority of the Livingstons of Richmond and Scotland Counties are decendants of Duncan's son Hugh Livingston.

Then she found a Duncan Livingston listed in the 1800, 1810 and 1820 Census records. But what is interesting is that the 1830 Census for Richmond County where the family lived lists a aged Duncan Livingston with one son 20-30 presuming his youngest Hugh born abt. 1805 and girl 5-10 and Duncan's wife 60 to 70'



i am curious about the source of this information about Duncan Livingston and names of his three sons. do you recall who Jeanne Parker is who helped with this info?

i was telling you earlier about a Charles Livingston in the early 1800s in the Lumber River area of Scotland county who i thought might be the son of Duncan, but i heard from a descendent of that Charles, and it sounds like it is not the same Charles who was the son of "my" Duncan. oddly enough, their Charles's father was also named Duncan, but they had records of a different wife's name, and a different list of children's names for their Duncan, plus their Duncan did not immigrate to the US, but it was his son, "their" Charles who immigrated here in the early 1800s.

any way, just trying to seek better info on "my" Duncan.

Alan

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Allan,
No problem. Ask all the questions you like.
Yes as I said in a previous post we dont know where precisely in Scotland Hugh's father Duncan was born but I am pretty certain it was in the County of Argyll likely in a parish in Western Argyll. Unfortunately I have no documented proof of that but I think your DNA results will help to reinforce that notion. Cousin Duncan's results so far certainly suggest that is probably the case plus what you have mentioned about the folks around you with highland scottish family names obvious to me as being of Western Argyll origin
I am not certain of the original published source of the information that was quoted from back then but I think it just briefly stated that that Duncan had three known sons Hugh, John and Charles. Could have been some local history privately published many years ago. Not sure. I seem to recall that all were born in America I would assume in North Carolina, but I really don't know anything about them. Just saw those three names in 2009 I think it was that you mentioned. I would imagine then that Hugh's two sons name Charles were named after his brother. Sorry I dont know any details about the brothers of Hugh. I really just focusing primarily with what information was available on Hugh Livingston. Certainly the name Charles was in Hugh's family. I found it interesting that his older son Charles was killed during the Civil War and a son born just after the Civil War was also named Charles after him. Having two brothers both the name Charles and sons of Hugh Livingston was a bit confusing at first only we eventually sorted it all out I recall.

Jeanne Parker that you mentioned at that time was trying to find out what connection the Parkers that lived in North Carolina in the mid 1800's and Livingstons who also lived in North Carolina might be. Jeanne's husband is in the Parker Livingstone DNA group and he appears to be a relatively close match with Livingstons in the Parker Livingston group and possibly your cousin Duncan hence the name Parker Livingston group. What is interesting about this match to this LIvingston by a Parker is that her husband's Parker ancestor Peter Parker born in the 1830's lived with farmer George Parker in Williamson Township, Richmond County, North Carolina as recorded in the 1850 Census. Anyways Jeanne was at the time wondering if there was some connection as her husbands relatives had believed there some connection in the family in the 1800's with a Livingston and this might explain why a Parker has Livingston like DNA. Its all a bit complicated and I took another look at it last week and think I have the answer to the mystery except which Livingstons the Parkers are related to. It might be Livingston relative of Hughs or another Livingston that lived in nearby South Carolina in the 1830's. ANyways this is one of reason why you being in the project was so important as your 67 marker results may help to indicate if there the possibility that these Parkers are connected to your North Carolina group of Livingstons in some way as yet unknown. ANyways this is one of reason why you being in the project was so important as your 67 marker results may help to indicate more clearly if there is good possiblility that the Parker family are related to Hugh's brother's or or another Livingston family we dont know about.

I have my own theory to this that I think makes sense from perspective of Y chromosome testing that has been done but it is just a theory without historic accounts and documented information of course. My hunch is that is quite simply the result of a first marriage and a blending through a second marriage of a Livingston family with a Parker family with members of the former LIvingston family taking on the Parker family name. Makes total sense to me and not unusual at all. That is basically that what I think I am seeing as the result of studying the 1850 census info. I do think the 1850 census info for the George Parker suggests the combining in the George Parker household of two families combined through a second marriage of Peter Parker's mother but I have no proof of that of course. Just throwing it out there as one possible explanation or at least the best one I could come up with. There are other theories no doubt.

Hope to get a better sense of things when your 67 marker test results are available to you to compare with Mr Parker and the Livingstons in the DNA group. I would prefer not to get way ahead of ourselves regarding the possibility of Duncan Livingston-Parker family connection until I see how close the match is at 67 marker level. If the results are really a close match at the 67 marker level, Andrew and Kyle may suggest going the next step to a 111 marker test. Have contacted Jeanne and hope she can contact you here.

regards,

Donald

[Alan Livingston]

that is very interesting about the Parker connection. i hope my DNA results will shed some light. i think there were more incidences of informal adoptions in those days, too, which may be another possibility. even in my wife's family, her grandparents took the children of a sibling and raised them as their own. i don't think many people even knew they were adopted (and probably were not legally adopted). so, there are a number of possiblities of how a Parker got that Livingston DNA.

Alan

[Canadian Livingstone]

HI Alan,
Who knows? You may be helping to solve a 19th century family mystery.
Well it really was a bit of a family mystery that Jeanne was working on as to what the Parker -Livingston connection was with the Parkers. One thing that I missed those years ago when we were discussing with Jeane about the possible Livingston connection is the fact that it is was mentioned that some of the Parker relatives years ago thought the LIvingston in the Parker family was actually Peter Parker's wife Laura Parker and there is now some info on Ancestry.com to that effect. It quickly however dawned on me last night that possibility can be be essentially ruled out as the Y chromosome test focuses on the the male dna that MR Parker would share with his male ancestors before him like his father grandfather, great grandfather, great-great grandfather down the ancestral line. Peter Parker's wife's ancestry whatever it was wont show up from that test. What was found with his results was that his marker results at 67 markers tested were similar to male Livingstones of highland origin in our Parker LIvingstone project group. I am 100 percent certain that Mr Parkers test results pointed to the fact that one of his male ancestors was a Livingston and not a Parker (which one of his Parker male ancestors I cant say for certain). The other thing we do know because of Mr Parker's test with the very nature of the Y Chromosome test itself it also rules out the possibility that Peter Parker's wife Laura was Laura Livingston or Ann Laura Livingston or her father was perhaps a Livingston as some have stated in the past and on Ancestry.com. No one thing i can say for certain to the Parkers is that the "Livingston" in the past in the family was certainly a male ancestor of Mr Parker given that he did a Y chromosome DNA test. Just cant say for certainty whether it was Peter Parker or from another generation. Peter Parker was my best guess based on the info i saw but who can really say with a 100 percent certainty. Anyways I have found this all very interesting. Jeane will be visiting the forum soon. I told her about your Hugh Livingston RIchmond County, NC connection.

regards,

Donald

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Alan,

Have you checked out the Richmond County Historical Society web page? These folks might prove to helpful and have some knowledge and information available on the early history of Argyll settlers in Richmond County.

http://rchs-nc.net

regards,

Donald

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Alan,

Anyone researching a Duncan Livingston ancestor in North Carolina has the challenge of sorting through the information on a number of Duncan Livingstons that lived in Richmond County, Anson County and neighbouring Montgomery County in North Carolina near the border with South Carolina. All these Livingstons I am pretty certain came from the County of Argyll to North Carolina possibly after the American Revolution in the 1790's or early 1800's. Duncan b. 1774 a stone mason was son of pioneer Setter James T. Livingston an early Islay, Argyllshire settler to Montgomery County, North Carolina. Duncan's stone work can still be seen today in his beautiful carved highland gravestones which he did for his parents in an old highland pioneer cemetery located in a beautiful forested area in Montgomery County, North Carolina. The information for this Montgomery County Duncan b. 1774 has apparently been mistaken at times for Duncan Livingston a pioneer highland settler also likely of Argyll origin of RIchmond County, North Carolina but this is of course incorrect. And DNA testing has proven that James T. Livingston and his son Duncan Livingston b.1774 of Montgomery County, N.C are not related to the Duncan Livingston and his Hugh Livingston's family or their descendants.

No accurate birthdate records are actually known or available for Duncan Livingston of Richmond County, North Carolina father of Hugh Livingston though some birth dates in the past have been indicated in accounts. Interestingly though there is information for a Duncan Livingston of Richmond County N.C in the 1810 U.S census which states that the male householder was born in the year 1765 or earlier. Does not say where but is pretty certain that would have been somewhere in highland Western Argyllshire,Scotland. I assume this to be Duncan Livingston father of Hugh Livington. Then in the 1830, the 1830 Census has a Duncan Livingston in Richmond County, N.C HIs age given is between 60 and 69. Comparing with the Duncan Livingston of the 1810 Census we have a more precise narrowing down of the actual potential age of Duncan Livingston which leaves us with an approximate birth date of 1770 at the latest and abt. 1760 at the earliest. This range seems to point to the fact that the Duncan Livingston born in 1765 or earlier in the 1810 Census for Richmond County, North Carolina is very likely the same man if follow this logic. So we can rule out the 1774 birth date as having been derived likely information actually pertaining to Duncan Livingston stone mason of Montgomery County who has nothing to do with Duncan Livingston of Richmond County, N.C. And we arrive at the conclusion that based upon a study of the 1810 and 1830 census for Richmond County that Duncan Livingston was likely born in Scotland probably abt. 1765. At least a decade earlier than previously thought by previous researchers apparently. One thing of significance with the 1830 Census info is that there are at this time only four persons residing in the home of Duncan Livingston. An older female likely his wife and an unknown male between the age of 20 and 29 in the census with a wife around the same age range. This is almost certainly Duncan's son Hugh Livingston and his wife since we know that Hugh Livingston was born abt. 1805 in North Carolina and he would definitely be between the age of 20 and 29 by the time of the 1830 U.S Census.

Some death dates for old Duncan I think have been suggested but I dont think any pertain to this Duncan Livingston. I believe however that the subsequent census of 1840 which lists Hugh Livingston for the first time as householder in what was then Rockingham District, Richmond County and does not list in father or an elderly male living amongst hime suggests to me that his father is by the year 1840 is deceased and that Hugh has possibly inherited the farm which seems logical as the earlier 1830 Census info seems show old Duncan Livingston residing on his farm with his wife and another adult man Hugh's age and his wife. So from all this my sense is that old DUncan Livingston of Williamson Township, Richmond County came to North Carolina sometime before 1805 as Hugh was born in North Carolina think around 1805 and that Duncan was born actually in the 1760 perhaps around 1765 rather than 1774 as some have suggested. the 1774 date seems to be actually refering to another DUncan Livingston that resided nearby in neigbouring Montgomery County but our Clan Society has proven to be through DNA no connection with the older DUncan that setttled in Richmond County. Furthermore as mentioned I think the 1830 and subsequent 1840 and 1850 Census info points to the likilhood that old DUncan Livingston of Richmond County actually died sometime between the year 1830 and 1840 in Richmond County and after his death his son Hugh Livingston is thereafter recorded in the 1830 and 1840 Census as the main Livingston householder in Williamson Township, Richmond County, NC. Unfortunately I have found no will or probate information that shows a death of DUncan of Richmond COunty in this 1830-1840 but I suspect none the less it is the case. A check of old land record info for Duncan and hugh's farm which I assume to be one and same location might have a 'mention in it to the property being transferred after the death of old Duncan to his son Hugh and even if very lucky a date when that took place. But that is not a certainty that information is there in the land records. Still worth while for you to check whatever old land records still survive. Might tell you also when DUncan first took possession of his land and where in Williamson Township.

I am presuming now that Duncan born in the 1760's in Argyll, Scotland came to North Carolina sometime with other Argyll settlers sometime between 1790 and 1805. Some of these settlers who we know ended up in Richmond COunty like DUncan were from Lismore and neigbouring Appin in Western Argyll and is possible that Duncan be from Lismore or Appin but that can not be proven. We do know however that many of the Scottish families we talked about were from Lismore and Appin and probably arrived during this period. Some also could have arrived in 1774 just before the AMerican Revolution, but I dont think that this was the case with your ancestor Duncan Livingston.

regards,

Donald

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Alan,

Your ancestor Hugh Livingston first appears in the 1840 U.S Census in Rockingham District, Richmond County, North Carolina with his wife, and one son and one daughter recorded as under the age of 5 years. His father appears to be deceased by this point of time, apparently passing away sometime between 1830 and 1840 but not recorded. Any chance Duncan could be buried near to his son Hugh who died in February of 1872 according his Probate documents.

In the 1850 Census his location is recorded as Williamson Township, Richmond County, N.C and his age 47 born in N.C. (birth year abt. 1803?)
In the 1860 Census his location is recorded as Wolfpitt, Richmond County, N.C. and his age 56 born in N.C. (birth year abt. 1804)
In the 1870 Census is location is recorded as Laurel Hill, Williamson Township, Richmond County, N.C and his age 66 born in N.C. ( birth year abt. 1804)
From this info it is safe to assume that his father Duncan probably arrived in the 1790's in Richmond County, N.C. as other highland Argyll families did.
Other information indicates that Hugh Alexander Livingston was born in 1805 and died Feb. 9, 1873. Hugh left no will but his probate records it is mentioned on one page that he died in February of 1872 and in March of 1872 began the process of dealing with the issues of his estate which seems to have taken a few years to settle. It may be that his tombstone mistakenly recorded his death as in 1873. Hugh's tombstone as you well know states 1805-1873 so that is where the 1805 and 1873 info presumingly originated. One researcher states that Hugh died Feb. 8, 1872 I noticed also, so they must be aware perhaps of the alternative information in the Hugh Livingston's estate probate documents following his death perhaps.

regards,

Donald

[Alan Livingston]

Donald,

as i mentioned earlier, my late father told me that Hugh was exhumed and moved our current family cemetery, which is next door to his son, Peter's former residence. i would venture that the reason for the incorrect tombstone year of death is that the tombstone was done some years after his death.

i wish i knew exactly where Duncan would have been buried. my father only relayed to me that the original Livingston farm was near Ghio, NC, which is a cross roads in south west Scotland county. but, i have never know exactly where. then, when i recently looked into the NC land grants web page, i found those old land grants to both Duncan and Hugh which have the description "east of Crooked Creek". when i found that on a map, it is very close to the Ghio location i was told as a child. it is a long shot, but perhaps i can research the old farm's location from land records, and then look for an ancient cemetery, but i doubt i could find a grave yard with surviving tombstones. it makes you wonder if Peter had the chance to exhume Duncan (his grandfather) when he exhumed his father, Hugh.

thank you for all the research about Duncan and Hugh. all of that census info makes sense to me, and seems to fit. the land grants to Duncan were issued between 1801 and 1827. the land grants to Hugh were between 1835 and 1850s. so, that agrees with your conclusion that Duncan died in the 1830s, with Hugh inheriting his property.

where did you find the legal papers about the Hugh Livingston estate dispute? is that something i can access?

Alan

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Alan,

I don't know if any clues can be derived from the last census that your ancestor DUncan Livingston appeared in but here goes. It just says Williamson District which is not too specific. I included all of the name on page 222 thinking that sooner or later some researcher in Richmond County may have some knowledge where these other farmers resided and it may help to better locate the precise location of your ancestral farm. I wonder if Hugh moved after his father's death. One census mentions WIlliamson, one Rockingham, another Wolfpitt and another Laurel HIll. But it does look like Duncan's location in 1830 before his death was WIlliamson District and near to these other householders I have listed. Hopefully this info may be helpful. I have used the old name of neighboring farmer technique when I am not sure precisely where a settler was located and sometimes it proves to guide in the right direction in my past research. That is of course assuming these other householders on page 222 were neighbouring householders which they may well have been in 1830. The idea is that maybe somewhere there may be some descendant or a local historian whose memory might be jogged by seeing this list on the last page of Williamson District list.

1830 U.S Census
Williamson District, Richmond County, North Carolina last page page 222
Angus Campbell
Zachariah Skipper
Daniel McLircen?
John Graham
Duncan McLean
Elizabeth Norton
Polly Norton
Duncan Levingston
Richard Ginn
William Crawford

Duncan Levingston's information 1830 Census Williamson District, Richmond County, N.C
1 male age 60 to 70
1 male age 20 to 29 (I am pretty certain this is son Hugh) I noticed that it is said that he was married in 1838 I think it was
1 female age 60 to 70
1 female age 5 to 10
Total number of residents 4

regards,

Donald

[Canadian Livingstone]

1840 Census Rockingham District Richmond County, North Carolina

Nathaniel Gibson
Samuel Goodwin
Zibab Gibson
John Gibson Sr.
Nathaniel P. Gibson
George Wright
Brian Smith
Gilliam Johnson
Avery Parker
Mrs Elizabeth Smith
Matthew Norton
Sarah Gaulett
Younger Norton
Samuel Pate
Hugh Livingston
Betsy Hodge
George Parker
James Baranline
Archibald Mcpherson
John L. Smith
John Henderson
Elizabeth Almon
Christina McKinnon
Samuel Benaiste
This Hugh Livingston's census page for 1840 with those on the page whom I am assuming our neighbours. Here he and a George Parker are recorded as living in Rockingham District, Richmond County.
Is this is the same George Parker as in the 1850 Census. I would assume it to be. I rechecked the 1850 Census for Williamson District and while Hugh Livingston and the George Parker family are both residing in Williamson District there census information is actually several pages apart. I was wrong. In the 1850 Census it almost appears like they are some distance apart but in Williamson District. I find Hugh in the 1850 Census on a page 550 and George Parker listed on census page 537 or 531. In the 1840 Census it would seem they are definitely neighbours. Oddly though George Parker's census information seems to be incomplete in terms of family information, but none the less the location of George Parker almost right next to Hugh Livingston in the census of 1840 which I did not notice before stupidly is of possible significance. It also reinforces my feeling that the Livingston family connection could possibly even be with George Parker himself. Not sure but it is interesting to see Hugh Livingston and a George Parker censused in such close proximity to one another that they must have been neighbours you would think at that time anyways.
regards,

Donald