Public Forum for anyone interested in tracing their roots.
Forum rules
Remember that this forum is publicly accessible. Do not share private information that you wish to remain private on the Ancestral Search forum.
I surely am. My great grandfather William SAUNDERS, b 1833 in Caputh, Perthshire, Scotland emigrated to NZ in 1858. When researching the records for the parish I noticed that the name SANDERS/SAUNDERS was interchangable - before 1780 90% of them were SANDERS and after 1810 90% of them were SAUNDERS. But that's another story and another forum. We'll see what we can sort out on that one by email.
I would love anything you have for me...and are we cousins or??
Ginger
Well, I just had to enter it in my database to work it out for me and we are third cousins twice removed - or what that actually means is that your grandfather and I are third cousins.
I got your email and I'll answer it shortly - after I amend a couple of things in your listing, and then put on some more of the Livingstone stuff for you, and so that others have it readily available.
In the meantime enjoy the wedding and on Sunday you can sit down and inwardly digest all the new information you have.
Kaye
Last edited by Kaye Saunders on Sat Jun 19, 2010 2:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
Donald Livingston quarrier Laroch/Ballachulish born abt. 1811 at Laroch/Ballachulish (died before 1846)
Catharine Livingston age 25 (Catharine McDonald of Ballachulish daughter of John and Mary McDonald) died 1846 buried St. Johns Church, Ballachuilish
These parents are actually the parents of Dugald's wife Catharine, and not Dugald's mother Catharine.
Known Children
Dugald age 6 (b. abt. 1835 in this census) (your ancestor)
Peter age 4
Janet age 2 (also known as Jessie born May 6, 1839 (baptised May 11, 1839 at St. Johns Episcopalian Church Ballachulish) James, born 28 Sep 1841, baptised 30 Sep 1841 - can't locate in 1851
1861 Scottish Census Argyllshire
Furnace, Cumlodden Parish, Argyll
Dugald Livingston Ballachulish, Argyll Scotland occupation Stone dresser b. abt. 1837
Dugald Livingston and Catharine McDonald married November 28,1861 Cumlodden Parish, Argyll
Known Children
Donald born May 3,1863 Glasgow as recorded in the Glasgow High Church records
John born March 14,1866 Ballachulish, Appin Parish (St. John's Episcopal Church Records Ballachulish), died 21 Apr 1890, Ardchattan, never married
Charles born Oct. 10, 1868 Bonawe,Ardchattan Parish, died 28 Feb 1947, Glasgow
Duncan born 17 Feb 1871 Bonawe,Ardchattan Parish, died 25 Apr 1937, Glasgow
Dugald born Sept. 11,1873 Ardchattan Parish either in village of Bonawe or Kenacraig, died 29 Sep 1890, never married
Catharine born 6 May 1875 Ardchattan Parish either in village of Bonawe or Kenacraig, died 27 May 1954, Glasgow
James born 3 Dec 1877 Ardchattan Parish either in village of Bonawe or Kenacraig, died 19 Jun 1881, Ardchattan
Mary born 27 Jun 1880 Ardchattan Parish either in village of Bonawe or Kenacraig, died 30 Jul 1881, Ardchattan James born 1 May 1882, baptised 30 May 1882, died 1974?
I'll list the descendants of these that I know about in another posting.
Listed below are the known Livingstone descendants of Donald and Catherine Livingstone (nee McDonald) of Ballachulish
Donald Livingston quarrier Laroch/Ballachulish born abt. 1811 at Laroch/Ballachulish (died before 1846)
married 29 Apr 1832 in Lismore, Argyll (Church of Scotland); to
Catharine McDonald, born abt 1816; died 1846; buried St. Johns Church, Ballachuilish
Known Children
Dugald born about 1835; died 14 Apr 1899, Govan, Lanark, Scotland
Peter born about 1837
Janet/Jessie born 6 May 1839; baptised 11 May 1839 at St. Johns, Ballachulish; died 16 Apr 1933, Riverton, Southland, New Zealand; married William Saunders, 25 Aug 1862, Green Island, Otago, New Zealand
James, born 28 Sep 1841; baptised 30 Sep 1841 St Johns, Ballachulish
What happened to Peter and James is unknown - can't locate burial for them but they were not with Dugald and Janet at their Uncle Charles' when the 1851 census was taken.
Dugald Livingston, born about 1835; died 14 Apr 1899, Govan, Lanark, Scotland
married 28 Nov 1861, Crarae, Cumlodden, Church of Scotland; to
Catharine McDonald born about 1843; daughter of John McDonald and Mary (maiden surname McDonald); died 14 Mar 1890, Kennacraig, Ardchattan
Known Children
Donald born May 3,1863 High Church Parish, Glasgow; - see Ginger's posts for his details
John born 14 Mar 1866, Lismore; baptised 15 Mar 1866 at St. John's, Ballachulish; died 21 Apr 1890, Ardchattan; never married
Charles born 10 Oct 1868, Bonau Quarry, Ardchattan Parish; died 28 Feb 1947, Tradeston, Glasgow; - married Flora Bell
Duncan born 17 Feb 1871 Bonau Quarry, Ardchattan Parish; died 25 Apr 1937, Blythswood, Glasgow; - married Christina McLean (name originally registered as Dugald and then altered to Duncan)
Dugald born 11 Sep 1873 Bonau Quarries, Ardchattan Parish; died 29 Sep 1890, Kennacraig, Ardchattan Parish; never married
Catharine born 6 May 1875 Benau[sic] Quarries, Ardchattan Parish; died 27 May 1954, Pollok,Glasgow; married Robert Scott Law
James born 3 Dec 1877 Kenacraig, Ardchattan Parish; died 19 Jun 1881, Kenacraig, Ardchattan Parish
Mary born 27 Jun 1880 Kennacraig, Ardchattan Parish; died 30 Jul 1881, Kenacraig, Ardchattan Parish
James born 1 May 1882, Kenacraig, Ardchattan Parish; baptised 30 May 1882, St John's, Ballachulish; died 1974? - thought to have married and had family, but have to wait until I get back to New Register House to get proof.
Charles born 10 Oct 1868, Bonau Quarry, Ardchattan Parish; died 28 Feb 1947, Tradeston, Glasgow
married 17 Feb 1893, Sullivan, Maine, USA, to
Flora Bell, born abt 1867, Lochgan; died 6 Sep 1939, Tradeston, Glasgow; daughter of Duncan and Flora Bell (maiden surname Bell)
Known children for Charles and Flora
John Archibald born 12 Dec 1893, Sullivan, Maine, USA; died 1979, Glasgow; married Lillian Jemima Graham
Flora Bell born 1 Dec 1895, Govan, Lanark; died 1979, Glasgow City; married Donald Blue
Charles Dugald born 10 Oct 1897, Govan, Lanark; died 1 Sep 1948, Govan, Lanark; married Mary Anne Ross Smith
Duncan Bell born 18 Nov 1899, Govan, Lanark; died 1961, Killearn, Stirling?
James Donald born 17 Sep 1901, Govan, Lanark; died 1992, Beith and Dalry, Ayrshire?; married Margaret Guthrie Gray
Known children for Duncan and Christina
Charles Ian Dugald born 1915; died 23 Jun 1920, Govan, Lanark
Known children for Catherine and Robert Scott LAW
Jane who married a McPhee - something else to get when time and money permit.
These are the Livingstone descendants of Charles and Dorothy Livingstone (nee McColl) who emigrated to New Zealand. Charles is the brother of Donald who is the direct ancestor of both Ginger and myself. I do have further information on further generations but have not posted it due to privacy issues. This doesn't display all that way - is there a better way of doing it?
Charles LIVINGSTONE
b. abt 1818, Ballachulish
d. 16 Aug 1871, buried Forest Hill, Southland, New Zealand
& Dorothy McCOLL
m. 16 May 1842, Ballachulish, Argyleshire, Scotland
| Dugald LIVINGSTONE
| b. 5 Mar 1843
| d. 20 Feb 1891
| & Mary McDONALD
| m. 31 Dec 1878, Invercargill, Southland, New Zealand
| | Ann LIVINGSTONE
| | b. 22 Nov 1879
| | d. 31 May 1981
| | & William Howard JOHNSTONE
| | m. 9 May 1900
| | Dorothy LIVINGSTONE
| | b. 20 Sep 1881
| | d. 14 Mar 1979
| | & William KNIGHT
| | m. 4 Jun 1919, Browns, Southland, New Zealand
| | Charles LIVINGSTONE
| | b. 22 Jul 1883
| | d. 24 Apr 1949
| | & Ada McDONALD
| | m. 22 Oct 1918
| | Archibald LIVINGSTONE
| | b. 8 Oct 1885
| | d. 2 May 1916
| | Dugald LIVINGSTONE
| | b. 15 Aug 1886
| | d. 4 Sep 1918, Walton On Thames, England
| | Flora LIVINGSTONE
| | b. 6 Sep 1888
| | d. 30 Sep 1981
| | & James McKENZIE
| | m. 6 Sep 1916
| | Hugh Alexander LIVINGSTONE
| | b. 4 Sep 1890
| | d. 6 Aug 1915
| Donald LIVINGSTONE
| b. 17 Aug 1845
| d. 26 Aug 1845
| Mary LIVINGSTONE
| b. 7 Jul 1846
| d. 8 Apr 1847
| Mary LIVINGSTONE
| b. 16 Apr 1848, Appin, Argyleshire, Scotland
| d. 2 Aug 1936, Forest Hill, Southland, New Zealand
| & Dugald CAMERON
| m. 18 May 1866, Forest Hill, Southland, New Zealand
| Ewen LIVINGSTONE
| b. 12 Aug 1850
| d. 18 Sep 1928
| & Jane MILLER
| m. 22 Apr 1896, Otautau, Southland, New Zealand
| | Jane Ramsay LIVINGSTONE
| | b. 7 Feb 1897, Otautau, Southland, New Zealand
| | d. 16 Dec 1961
| | & Hugh Leonard GORRIE
| | m. 23 Sep 1925
| | Angus Ewen LIVINGSTONE
| | b. 5 Jun 1900, Otautau, Southland, New Zealand
| | d. 17 Aug 1900
| | Ewen LIVINGSTONE
| | b. 18 Dec 1901, Drummond, Southland, New Zealand
| | d. 17 Sep 1973
| | & Dominica PRENDEVILLE
| | m. 25 Jan 1926
| | Charles Alvin LIVINGSTONE
| | b. 27 Feb 1903, Scotts Gap, Southland, New Zealand
| | d. 7 May 1961
| | & Winifred Maud SANGSTER
| | m. 1929
| Janet LIVINGSTONE
| b. 28 Oct 1852
| d. 14 Mar 1938
| & Duncan FERGUSON
| m. 20 Aug 1875, Forest Hill, Southland, New Zealand
| Margaret LIVINGSTONE
| b. 8 Jun 1855, Lismore, Argyleshire, Scotland
| d. 26 Jul 1936
| & Neil McLEOD
| m. 20 Dec 1878, Forest Hill, Southland, New Zealand
| John LIVINGSTONE
| b. 28 Feb 1859, Lismore, Argyleshire, Scotland
| d. 6 Jul 1949
| & Mary Ann LEDINGTON
| m. 8 Jul 1886, Wyndham, Southland, New Zealand
| | Charles Hugh LIVINGSTONE
| | b. 7 Apr 1887
| | d. 21 Dec 1962
| | Thomas Francis LIVINGSTONE
| | b. 19 Feb 1889, Otautau, Southland, New Zealand
| | d. 26 Jun 1958
| | & Margaret Maud FAIRBAIRN
| | m. 17 May 1926
| | Dugald John LIVINGSTONE
| | b. 4 Jun 1891, Otautau, Southland, New Zealand
| | d. 26 Jan 1980
| | & Janet WALKER
| | m. 16 Aug 1916
| | John Henry LIVINGSTONE
| | b. 16 Nov 1895, Otautau, Southland, New Zealand
| | d. 15 May 1914
| | Elizabeth Rena LIVINGSTONE
| | b. 17 Oct 1906
| | d. 21 Nov 1985
THanks for that. Are there alot of Livingstons/Livingstones in New Zealand? Are there a number of Livingstons in New Zealand current doing genealogical research? Is there is a genealogical or family history society that you know of that would have information on New Zealand Livingstons.
We have one Livingston in our DNA project who ancestor James Livingston b. abt. 1805 or 1806 was from West Laroch village though there may be an earlier Livingston family connection to nearby North Cuil. We also Ginger's Livingston family that lived presumingly at East Laroch descended from your ancestor DOnald LIvingston and Catharine McDonald. The test results indicate that these are two distinct Livingston families not related so it could also be that Donald Livingston and Ann Stewart who lived with Laroch shepherd, John Livingston and Charity or Christine Livingston may also not be related to Donald Livingston and Catharine McDOnald. All I can say certain however with absolute certain from the tests is that the family of Donald and Catharine Livingston in the 1841 census and James and Isabella Livingston in the 1851 census living at Laroch are not related. James and Isabella Livingston I am told left Laroch or Ballachulish in 1853 for Australia and I have been in touch with a decendant. I thought perhaps at one point that Ginger and this descendant of James Livingston of Laroch might be related but after Ginger's relative was tested that turned out not to be the case. So from this we can probably assume that we are dealing with at least two distinct highland Livingston families not related at East Laroch, West Laroch and Northern Ballachulish. As I know you have been doing Ballachulish Livingston research for a number of years I thought I should pass on to what we found out from those tests regarding those two Laroch/Ballachulish area families. One explanation I have been suggesting to James Livingston's descendant is that Jame's father was not originally from Laroch or Ballachulish but from North Cuil in Duror Parish where I believe he was born possibly to a John Livingston b. 1774 who lived at North Cuil in Duror Parish. We know that James was infact born in Duror Parish. Given that perhaps Ginger's ancestor Donald Livingston and his family are descended from a much older familly rooted in the Ballachulish/ Laroch area. Historians speak of and highland Mclea Livingston family that lived for several generations at Ballachulish, several generations of a John Mclea. Could you and Ginger be descended from an ancient Ballachulish Mclea Livingstone family that some Western Argll historians talked about?
Further DNA testing of the descendants of Ballachulish and Laroch area Livingstons may provide us a definite answer on the origins of these Livingstons.
regards,
Seeing we believe Ginger and my family are connected is there any point in getting one of our line tested? I know I've got no male descendants in our line seeing it was my great grandmother who was the Livingstone, but there are descendants of the Uncle she emigrated with. One of their line also researches the family history and about five years ago I offered to pay for the test if any of her male relatives - preferably her brother (I think he's one of the oldest "Livingstones" around in our tree) and nothing ever came of it. I hope to meet up with her again in a couple of weeks so will pursue it again then if you think it's worthwhile. There is also another descendant of Charles researching the line - but he no longer carries the Livingstone name.
You asked about other Livingstone families out here - I haven't met up with that many. However, having said that, I was at the Riverton cemetery one day and a lady was putting flowers on her husband's, Charles Livingstone, grave and I asked about their ancestry. She came from out the country (or about six miles away) and said that their tree had been done by someone but she didn't know where the family came from, and she gave me the name of the person researching, but they never replied to my queries.
Also of interest is a small town (if you can call it that) here in Otago called Livingstone - I suppose I should make an effort to find out why it is called that.
There is a Bryan Livingston researching - I believe his family came from Aberdeen way.
And, there is a Jeni Simpson researching - and her family is a bit of a mystery - maybe you can solve it. Her ancestor was a Dugald Livingston who arrived in Bluff, NZ in 1875. In 1879 he married, aged 25, in Riverton to an Annie McIvor. In searching for his ancestry we had to go to the births of his children and what was listed on those certificates - on his son Dugald's certificate the father is listed as being born in Appan [sic], Scotland, on Duncan's certificate it says he was born in Glencoe. But we can't find him in Scotland. The really puzzling thing is that one of the witnesses at this wedding was John Livingstone of Forest Hill - now that is one of GG Uncle Charles' sons who was born in Laroch, so did they just meet by chance out here, or did the families know each other back in Scotland (I assume they must have) and Dugald looked them up when he arrived (15 years after Charles' family)?
Probably not neccessary to go the DNA route since your famiy connection has been pretty much proven by genealogy research. THe Maclea Livingstone Society has had tested over a 100 Livingstones or something like that so they leaves a possible option open to anyone to finds this of use to them in their family research. In your case however it is pretty clear that you are cousins I would think. I guess if one wanted 100% proof of the family connection or just interested in locating distant cousins worldwide through a Genealogy DNA Project such as that of the Maclea Livingstone un the future. In the case of someone like myself whose father was not a Livingstone I was able find a Livingston cousin of Movern Argyllshire ancestry to participate in the DNA project.
Jenni SImpson was looking for her ancestor Dugald born abt. 1851 in the Appin/Glencoe area. I was wondering if the Dougald born abt. 1853 or 1852 at Appin according to the 1861 census at Morvern, Argyllshire that might be her actual ancestor.
I suggested to Jenni a while back that there is only one Dugald age 8 listed as born in Appin around 1853 in the 1861 census records for Morvern living but actually born at West Laroch area to West Laroch shepherd John Livingston b.1812 and his wife CHristy that fits her ancesotor. There is a Dugald Livingston born abt. 1852 or 1853 probably at West Laroch/Ballachulish the son of West Laroch shepherd John Livingstone b. 1812 likely in West Laroch or Ballachulish and his wife Christina (Christy ) a native of either Kilmallie, Inverness or Kilmovaig, Inverness born abt. 1813 in the 1861 census at Movern. In the 1851 Census John the shepherd and Christina and family are at West Laroch. Note that the 1861 census at morvern it just states that John and his children including Dugald were born at Appin but in the 1851 it lists John Livingston age 39 shepherd as living at Balachelish West Laroch (there spelling not mine). Dugald is listed then as being born APpin (actually born at West Laroch more likely) and his age is 8 but it might have been 8 going on 9 which would make his birth date 1852. In any event whatever his actuall birth date in the early 1850's I told Jenni that it was hunch that this "might" possibly be her ancestor Dugald Livingston from the Appin-Glencoe area (which could include Ballachulish/West laroch actually) born abt. 1851 that she is looking for in the scottish records.
Now what is interesting in terms of your Ballachulish research about this particular Dugald age 8 son who shows up in the 1861 Morvern census with his father John Livingston formerly of West Laroch is that of course John Livingston shepherd and his wife Christy or CHristina is mentioned in the St. John's church records. He is also at one point living with Donald Livingston and Ann Stewart before the 1850's the other Donald Livingston we talked about the other day who was a quarrier living at West Laroch village for many years. So I just wondered if it is possible that this Dougald born at 1853 at Appin (West Laroch?) I found in the 1861 census at Morvern is infact the Dougall she is looking for. Could she have an ancestal connection to Laroch like you do but with another area Livingston family. Anyways that is the only Dougald that came close in the census reccords and suggested this possibility to her last year I think it was.
Christy or Christina Livingston or Christina Rankin died in 1862 at age 50 the wife of Morvern Shepherd John Livingston according to one of the records that you transcribed from St. John's CHurch at Ballachuilish. John died in 1875 and is buried in the cemetery with Christina. THe only problem with this theory is that it states in the St, John's cemetery records that their son Dugald died in infancy but does not give an age. I could not find John and Christina's son Dougald in the 1871 Census so I guess this could be a false lead.
If it's still possible, I'd love to have your family member DNA tested--to prove the lines are connected as you expect. Since we have a number of lines, we fully expect the match. I encourage anyone with such a distant match, proven or not, to verify with DNA if it is within their means. We would love to have him in the Project! The more people test the more certain we get of the various lines and groupings and can with confidence help people out very quickly. Not to mention that your genealogical knowledge would be highly valuable as an addition to the Project should related or possibly related lines come forward, as they often do!
Email or PM me anytime to discuss further!
Kyle=
Kyle S. MacLea Clan Society Life Member; DNA Project Co-Admin New Hampshire, USA kyle-dot-maclea-at-gmail-dot-com
