Tips for researching around 1750-1800

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Kyle MacLea
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Re: Tips for researching around 1750-1800

Post by Kyle MacLea »

Hi Alan,

It is VERY common for people to have stories of connections to Dr. Livingstone. Sometimes this might have been due to a maternal connection, but I think most commonly this is just due to his fame and the common surname. That's not to say that this was intentional. But in a world where communication and verification of facts was difficult, all it takes is one person to transfer a hunch into a certainty for future generations. Nowadays, we can communicate so much easier and verify (if we choose) these bits of lore. What I think is most admirable is an open mind to follow where the data take us!

Kyle=
Kyle S. MacLea
Clan Society Life Member; DNA Project Co-Admin
New Hampshire, USA
kyle -dot- maclea -at- gmail -dot- com
Lindaliv
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Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 7:09 pm

Re: Tips for researching around 1750-1800

Post by Lindaliv »

Dear Donald,
my name is Linda and I'm Alan's Aunt. I confirm my Great Grandparents were Duncan Livingstone and Flora MacInnes (Tiree) and my Grandparents were Hugh Livingstone and Jane MacPhee.
If you want any information about our research for the family tree, you can find it at livingstonesofmorvern.org.uk
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2770
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Tips for researching around 1750-1800

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Allan,

Ok I have figured something out that now makes sense I think regarding Duncan's father Hugh. See if this make any sense.

I think the notion that Hugh was a farmer born abt. 1811 is a sound one. The only Hugh Livingston born anywhere near 1811 in Kilninian and Kilmore and that is single in the 1841 Census is Hugh Livingston farmer of Lephein who is living with a Catharine born abt. 1791 whom may be his mother as well as a Charles Livingston born abt 1821 possibly a younger brother. So we have what appears to be the one and only single Hugh Livingston the right age abt. 30 in Kilninian and Kilmore and his mother's name is Catharine.

Now we know that Hugh likely married in the early 1840's and that his wife Mary and that they are connected to one of the villages of Kilninian and Kilmore but that later the family ended up in Tobermory. Now we know that Hugh the deceased farmer father of Duncan died young inferred from the 1861 Census record and the marriage record of his son Duncan and his wife Flora but Hugh could not have died before 1853 as we know for certain that Duncan was born at Tobermory in 1853. So Hugh was presuminlgy alive in 1853 and when the family made the move to Tobermory and died sometime before 1861 presumingly at TObermory. But we also know from the 1861 Census that a daughter Ann Mary age 12 born abt. 1849 or 1848 was not born at Tobermory but according to the 1861 Census in some village in Kilninian and Kilmore not mentioned. Where did I go next you wonder?

I went to the 1851 Census where I found the only Hugh and Mary Livingston that make sense in 1851 in Kilninian and Kilmore where obviously your ancestors Hugh and Mary were living. The subsequent 1861 Census with widow Mary at TObermory make this quite clear. But there a little confusion with information so let me explain what I am seeing in 1851 at Kilnian and kilmore in terms of Hugh and Mary and family.

1851 Census Kilninian and Kimore Parish
Balechrach(Baliachrach?) 8 acre farm Hugh Livingston born Kilninian, Argyllshire according to 1851 Census
Hugh Livingston born abt. 1811 age 40 Farmer This is in my oppinion your ancestors Hugh and Mary. It just has to be.
Mary Livingston born abt. 1822 age 29 in Kilninian Parish
Mary age 7? (These 2 children died in infancy in my oppinion) b. Kilninian Parish
Marron age 5? b. Kilninian Parishb.
Ann age 3 born abt. 1848 Kilninian Parish in the 1851 Census at Kilninian and Kilmore is almost certainly Ann Mary age 12 in the 1861 Census living with her younger brother Duncan and her widowed mother Mary Livingston. DOnt ask we why they refer to Ann as Ann Mary in the 1861 Census for some odd reason. I am sure it is the same daughter.
Also oddly enough in the 1851 Census living with Hugh and Mary is a Kate Livingston age 65 whom I assume to be Hugh's mother Catharine Livingston ? who appears as Catharine Livingston age 50 in the 1841 Census. My thought is that this is the same person and that she did not give her correct age in the 1841 Census when they lived at Lephein. (Something that I have run across all to frequently in Canadian census records.)

1861 Census Tobermory
Mary Livingston age 39 (widow of Hugh we both agree on)
Ann Mary age 12 born Kilninian Parish
Duncan age 8 born Tobermory

So if this is your Hugh and Mary in the 1851 Census then we have one other detaill and that is Hugh's mother was likely a Catharine or Kate Livingston and that Hugh was born in a village in Kilninian as was Mary. I quite frequently find a widowed mother or mother in law living with her son or daughter law in these Scottish census records. I have no idea where Luphein or Balechrach is in Kilninian Parish as of yet. If I am correct Hugh and Mary lived in Kilninian Parish at an 8 acre farm at Baliachrach and sometime before Duncan's birth the family moved to Tobermory. Or Hugh died just before Duncan was born and his wife moved to Tobermory where Duncan was born



regards,

Donald
AGLivingstone
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Re: Tips for researching around 1750-1800

Post by AGLivingstone »

Looking at the clan family tree, there is a Duncan, b. 14 June 1777 at Bachuil. I was wondering where i got my Duncan birth estimate from, and it must be from Roberts Notes.

Does anyone know anything about the Duncan above?
AGLivingstone
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 12:46 pm

Re: Tips for researching around 1750-1800

Post by AGLivingstone »

Canadian Livingstone wrote:Hi Allan,

Ok I have figured something out that now makes sense I think regarding Duncan's father Hugh. See if this make any sense.

I think the notion that Hugh was a farmer born abt. 1811 is a sound one. The only Hugh Livingston born anywhere near 1811 in Kilninian and Kilmore and that is single in the 1841 Census is Hugh Livingston farmer of Lephein who is living with a Catharine born abt. 1791 whom may be his mother as well as a Charles Livingston born abt 1821 possibly a younger brother. So we have what appears to be the one and only single Hugh Livingston the right age abt. 30 in Kilninian and Kilmore and his mother's name is Catharine.

Now we know that Hugh likely married in the early 1840's and that his wife Mary and that they are connected to one of the villages of Kilninian and Kilmore but that later the family ended up in Tobermory. Now we know that Hugh the deceased farmer father of Duncan died young inferred from the 1861 Census record and the marriage record of his son Duncan and his wife Flora but Hugh could not have died before 1853 as we know for certain that Duncan was born at Tobermory in 1853. So Hugh was presuminlgy alive in 1853 and when the family made the move to Tobermory and died sometime before 1861 presumingly at TObermory. But we also know from the 1861 Census that a daughter Ann Mary age 12 born abt. 1849 or 1848 was not born at Tobermory but according to the 1861 Census in some village in Kilninian and Kilmore not mentioned. Where did I go next you wonder?

I went to the 1851 Census where I found the only Hugh and Mary Livingston that make sense in 1851 in Kilninian and Kilmore where obviously your ancestors Hugh and Mary were living. The subsequent 1861 Census with widow Mary at TObermory make this quite clear. But there a little confusion with information so let me explain what I am seeing in 1851 at Kilnian and kilmore in terms of Hugh and Mary and family.

1851 Census Kilninian and Kimore Parish
Balechrach(Baliachrach?) 8 acre farm Hugh Livingston born Kilninian, Argyllshire according to 1851 Census
Hugh Livingston born abt. 1811 age 40 Farmer This is in my oppinion your ancestors Hugh and Mary. It just has to be.
Mary Livingston born abt. 1822 age 29 in Kilninian Parish
Mary age 7? (These 2 children died in infancy in my oppinion) b. Kilninian Parish
Marron age 5? b. Kilninian Parishb.
Ann age 3 born abt. 1848 Kilninian Parish in the 1851 Census at Kilninian and Kilmore is almost certainly Ann Mary age 12 in the 1861 Census living with her younger brother Duncan and her widowed mother Mary Livingston. DOnt ask we why they refer to Ann as Ann Mary in the 1861 Census for some odd reason. I am sure it is the same daughter.
Also oddly enough in the 1851 Census living with Hugh and Mary is a Kate Livingston age 65 whom I assume to be Hugh's mother Catharine Livingston ? who appears as Catharine Livingston age 50 in the 1841 Census. My thought is that this is the same person and that she did not give her correct age in the 1841 Census when they lived at Lephein. (Something that I have run across all to frequently in Canadian census records.)

1861 Census Tobermory
Mary Livingston age 39 (widow of Hugh we both agree on)
Ann Mary age 12 born Kilninian Parish
Duncan age 8 born Tobermory

So if this is your Hugh and Mary in the 1851 Census then we have one other detaill and that is Hugh's mother was likely a Catharine or Kate Livingston and that Hugh was born in a village in Kilninian as was Mary. I quite frequently find a widowed mother or mother in law living with her son or daughter law in these Scottish census records. I have no idea where Luphein or Balechrach is in Kilninian Parish as of yet. If I am correct Hugh and Mary lived in Kilninian Parish at an 8 acre farm at Baliachrach and sometime before Duncan's birth the family moved to Tobermory. Or Hugh died just before Duncan was born and his wife moved to Tobermory where Duncan was born



regards,

Donald
That tends to tie up with my thoughts. The first born son seemed to die quite young into their family life for about 3 generations about that time. This is from the 1841 census:

In 1841 Hugh (30) is a farmer. We saw this from his sons wedding certificate.
Scotland 1841 census
Name: Hugh Livingston
Age: 30
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1811
Gender: Male
Where born: Argyll, Scotland
Civil Parish: Kilninian and Kilmore
County: Argyll
Address: Lephein
Occupation: Farmer
Parish Number: 544
Household Members: Name Age
Catharine Livingston 50
Charles Livingston 20
Hugh Livingston 30
Donald McLeod 35
Duncan McLeod 4 Mo
Flora McLeod 5
Margaret McLeod 25


I didnt realise at the time, but I actually had contact from a decendant of the Donald McLeold. Margaret Mcleod, is Hughs sister.
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2770
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Tips for researching around 1750-1800

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Linda,

Thanks for that. Allan has since my original postings contacted me with an updated the information notifying me that Hugh son of Duncan b. 1853 Tobermory who lived at Greenock was his ancestor not Duncan's son Duncan who was also in the boilermaker business as was his father Duncan Livingston b.1853. I think both sons of Duncan were in the boilermaker business actually.

In my initial research of Northern Mull I found two Duncan Livingstones born around 1852 and 1853 one the son of Archibald Livingston and Catharine McLaughlin and one the son of Widow Mary that lived in the Tobermory area. I thought for some reason your Duncan was the son of Archibald. Actually it Duncan b.1853 son of Mary b. abt. 1822 and her deceased husband Hugh b.abt.1811. I have updated and corrected my information an of course left the information I found on the Lauriston Street, Grennock family of Duncan Livingston that were in the Boilermaker businness.

Allan and I are presently looking at the census information regarding Duncan's parents Hugh and Mary Livingston whom originated according the census records from a village or village in Kilninian Parish in Mull. Apparently Hugh's mother was Catharine or Kate Livingston also listed in the 1851 Census living with her son Hugh and family and it states she also was born somewhere in Kilninian Parish. So Kilninian Parish in Mull is where I am looking for any other possible information. It is true that Dr. David Livingston's grandfather Neil Livingston and his wife Mary Morrison lived in the 1770's in Kilninian Parish for a time but the DNA test results suggest that Allan's Livingston ancestors in Kilninian Parish in Mull were not kin to Dr. Livingstone's people but the good news is that he is a close match to Baron Livingstone's family, the Bachuil Livingstones of Bachuil, Isle of Lismore who have lived for centuries on the Isle of Lismore in Western Argyllshire.

regards,

Donald
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2770
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Tips for researching around 1750-1800

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

hi Allan,

I have found both Lephein and Baliacrach in Kilninian Parish in Northern Mull. If you to look up the the Mull location finder and grid map on line you will see that Lephein is in section e-9 and Baliacrach is in D-9 so they are both in Northern Mull and close enough to one another that there is little doubt I would think that the Hugh Livingston 30 yr old farmer at Lephein in 1841 is the same Hugh Livingston age 40 farmer at Balecrach (Baliacrach) in the 1851 Census in Kilninian Parish. Not to be confused with Lephen which is elsewhere in Scotland. Lephein is about 4 miles from Tobermory and Baliacrach is about a mile.According to the DNA test result you have and Island of Lismore Bachuil Maclea Livingstone connection but dont know that anyone knows how recent. You could be connected to the Bachuil mclea ancestors of the present Baron Livingstone sometime before the 1750's when the clan still went by their more gaelic name Maconlea or dunslea. That was more than 250 years ago. It is possible that Hugh's grandparents originated from Lismore; his mother who appears was a Catharine Livingston came from one of the villages in Kilninian Parish. That much we learned from the 1851 Census. I suspect his father may have come from Kilninian Parish as well, though there may not be any way or proving or disproving that. We know that Hugh was somewhere in Kilninian Parish and we know that both in 1841 and in 1851 he is living on two different locations both close to one another in Northern Mull.

One of the big questions you have because of the DNA results is when did Hughs father, grandfather, great grandfather, great-great grandfather ect.? settle in Northern Mull in Kilninian Parish. That is very difficult question to answer and to answer it terms of an exact time frame. I would assume that relatives of the old Bachuil Livingstones are spread throughout Western Argyll as they have been on the Isle of Lismore for very very long time, some related families leaving the Island of Lismore at various times over the centuries. You must understand are a close match to very old family that has been on Lismore and in the adjacent area for a long time. Perhaps some established themselves in Northern Mull in the middle ages or in the 1700's I cant be certain unfortunately how long your family has lived in Northern Mull.

Depending how closely matching you are on your test results you could a very distant relative of Baron Livingstone, his 15th cousin or his 6th cousin depending on the 67 marker genetic distance. CLearly you do share a common ancestor possibly in relatively recent times or in more distant times. I cant say for certain.

That being said not every one can say they are related to the Baron of Bachuil no matter how close or distant. I certainly dont have that privilege. If you had not taken the test you would be no wiser as to your ancient ancestral heritage on the picturesque and historic Island of Lismore and if you had not delved deeply into your family history, you might not know your family has more recent roots in Kilninian Parish. I think it is safe to say that you have Livingstone roots in Northern Mull apparently as far back as the 19th century records go and that your earlier 18th century Maconlea ancestors probably also lived in Northern Mull but they are proven by DNA testing to be connected to the ancient Bachuil Maconlea family that lived on the Island of Lismore for many centuries.

regards,

Donald
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2770
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Tips for researching around 1750-1800

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Allan,
Heres something interesting.
According to the Kilninian and Kilmore Parish records there was indeed a Catharine Livingston and her husband Duncan Livingston who were living in Morvern Parish in 1811 when their first child was baptised and then moved to guess what Kilninian Parish at Lephein and there last baptismal entry ends at Lephein at least suggesting they did not move to another village after that as many did according to their baptismal records. So lets assume for moment that this Duncan Livingston and Catherine McDonald remain at Lephein after the early 1800's baptismal records we see and farmed there for the next few decades. What are the odds that there were Duncan and Catharine Livingstons at a little place called Lephein and we should notice remnants of this family years later at Lephein. Reasonably good I think. We know there was a Hugh Livingston and older widow Catharine Livingston at Lephein in the 1841 Census. Now you are probably worried because Hugh is not listed in the baptismal records but I would not worry. Records can screwed up. It is too much of coincedince in my mind. ALso the fact that the earliest baptism is 1811 at Morvern is interesting unless it is a nother Donald Livingston and Catharine McDonald. I hope it is correct because Movern and the Island of Lismore are in close proximity to one other and the linked historically as is Appin Parish also nearby. Morvern is where my Livingstons came from.

So I think you may have explored this possibiltiy prior to me but to my way thinking here goes:

Duncan Livingston and Catharine McDonald (Only Duncan and Catharine Livingston were according to parish records at Lephein in the early 1800's. )
Hugh Livingston and Mary McDonald (The only problem is that Hugh is not listed in the baptismal records for this Duncan and Catharine)
Duncan Livingston and Flora McInnes
Hugh Livingston and Jane McPhee

regards,

Donald
AGLivingstone
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 12:46 pm

Re: Tips for researching around 1750-1800

Post by AGLivingstone »

I'm just having a look at YDNA again, although it now shows up a lot of matches since the last time I looked.

I have a 37 marker with genetic distance of -1 to Robert Livingstone.

Its a while since I have looked here, but if I remember correctly it had me matching the Barons line in under 8 generations. Perhaps someone with more understanding of DNA could explain how I could check this information again.
AGLivingstone
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 12:46 pm

Re: Tips for researching around 1750-1800

Post by AGLivingstone »

Canadian Livingstone wrote:Hi Allan,
Heres something interesting.
According to the Kilninian and Kilmore Parish records there was indeed a Catharine Livingston and her husband Duncan Livingston who were living in Morvern Parish in 1811 when their first child was baptised and then moved to guess what Kilninian Parish at Lephein and there last baptismal entry ends at Lephein at least suggesting they did not move to another village after that as many did according to their baptismal records. So lets assume for moment that this Duncan Livingston and Catherine McDonald remain at Lephein after the early 1800's baptismal records we see and farmed there for the next few decades. What are the odds that there were Duncan and Catharine Livingstons at a little place called Lephein and we should notice remnants of this family years later at Lephein. Reasonably good I think. We know there was a Hugh Livingston and older widow Catharine Livingston at Lephein in the 1841 Census. Now you are probably worried because Hugh is not listed in the baptismal records but I would not worry. Records can screwed up. It is too much of coincedince in my mind. ALso the fact that the earliest baptism is 1811 at Morvern is interesting unless it is a nother Donald Livingston and Catharine McDonald. I hope it is correct because Movern and the Island of Lismore are in close proximity to one other and the linked historically as is Appin Parish also nearby. Morvern is where my Livingstons came from.

So I think you may have explored this possibiltiy prior to me but to my way thinking here goes:

Duncan Livingston and Catharine McDonald (Only Duncan and Catharine Livingston were according to parish records at Lephein in the early 1800's. )
Hugh Livingston and Mary McDonald (The only problem is that Hugh is not listed in the baptismal records for this Duncan and Catharine)
Duncan Livingston and Flora McInnes
Hugh Livingston and Jane McPhee

regards,

Donald
Yes, the is the same thoughts as me.
Hughs (c1808) sister Margaret - http://www.livingstonesofmorvern.org.uk ... ne1814.jpg living in the same House as Catherine and Hugh along with another brother Charles was the information that lead me to think that this was the correct family. I also have found work by others around this family on Mull geneaology. I found this later - http://www.mullgenealogy.co.uk/MullSear ... v_no=31743 where someone else had the same family list as I had.
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