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Postby jmlivingstone » Thu Nov 12, 2015 1:59 pm

http://www.mhs.mb.ca/docs/mb_history/41 ... ters.shtml

Interesting bit of Canadian history,

John
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Re: Info

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Fri Nov 13, 2015 2:51 am

Hi John,

That letter is great piece of early Manitoba history and interesting sample of how one of our typical clansmen of the early 1800's would have written a letter to his kin and friends back home. He is no Walter Scott but he does get the message across. What is more significant about that letter is that James Livingston is the great-great-great Uncle of a member of our Clan Society Jerry Schmidt of Iowa. Jerry is descended from James Livingston's brother Hugh mentioned in that letter. And older brother Donald Livingston also mentioned in the letter was along with my ancestor MIles Livingston two boatbuilders recruited on the Isle of Islay where they were working, by an highland agent of Lord Selkirk in 1812 to be a part of Lord Selkirk's Red River Colony situated in Hudson's Bay Company territory in what is today in Manitoba and North Dakota. In June of 1812 James and Hugh's older brother Donald joined my ancestor Miles Livingston b. 1775, Miles second wife Janet (nicknamed Jessie) also a Livingston and Mile's son from his first marriage also named Donald Livingston aboard the Hudsons Bay Company vessel THe Robert Taylor for a Hudson Bay Company outpost on Hudsons Bay and from there a 800 mile journey south by small boat and canoe to the forks of the Red River. Several years later James older brother Donald wrote his father Neil suggesting that the family join him and his wife Ann McGilverary in the Red River Colony and think it was in 1819 that Donald's parents, brothers James, Hugh, John, Duncan and their sisters joined older brother Donald at the settlement. The archives information is not exactly regarding my family. In the list of settlers who arrived at Hudsons Bay in 1812 the Livingstons listed included Miles Livingston, Jessie who is actually Janet Livingston. Janet is mentioned as being Miles wife in other records but not on that 1812 list. Jessie was at this time a nickname for Janet something that has been missed by more than a few researchers who studied that document. Then they mention with Miles and Jessie there was a Donald Livingston Sr. and Donald Livngston Jr. which I assumed at one early in my research of my Livingston family meant that Miles companion on the trip had son Donald Jr. That was not the case as Donald was young and only recently married to Ann McGillverary also a settler aboard the ship or shortly after they arrived at Hudsons Bay. Oddly enough then the Donald Livingston Jr. or the younger Donald Livingston I found out from studying settlement records and later records pertaining to this Donald Livingston Jr. indicates that he was actually Miles Livngston's son from his first marriage a teenager aboard the Robert Taylor born abt. 1796. This Donald Livingston Jr or the younger Donald recorded on that list of Selkirk settlers arriving at Hudson's Bay in 1812 later ends up some years later in Quebec where records I found with great luck mention that Miles Livingston then of Upper Canada is the father of DOnald Livingston of Quebec. For years I did not realize that the Donald Livingston Jr in that confusing written record was Miles Livingston's son but once I did I continued the search for him after learning that the Red RIver Colony records indicated he left the settlement in 1816 or 1817 with the intention of getting a ship in Hudsons Bay to go home, but that did not happen and instead he continued in an eastward direction and ended up in Quebec where he settled and found work as land surveyor dying in 1862 I discovered.

Jerry and I did some looking into the possibility of finding a Livingston descendant descended from his ancestor Hugh or James or Donald but as yet no Livingston relative of JErry has been found for the dna project that could answer the question of whether or not Jerry and I are related by kinship between his ancestor Hugh brother of James Livingston of that letter and my great-great-great grandfather Miles Livingston. I was amazed when I first saw that letter and still am. That is survived all these years. A sheet of paper with my great-great grandmother's and other baptisms from the earliest years of that settlement apparently fell out an old book and found by a minister some years later at the settlement. Just luck that this baptism page survived. Anyways I thought I should tell a little part of the interesting story of the Red River Colony and the Livingstons. To make a long story short my ancestor Miles Livingston with his wife Janet Livingston and their children left the Red River Settlement in 1815 with a party of settlers from the colony for Upper Canada (Ontario, Canada) and Jerry's ancestor and his brothers stayed on for an number of years until sometime before 1840 I think it is James and Jerry's ancestor Hugh Livingston and their families headed for Iowa, USA. Older brother Donald I think was the last to join them in Iowa. Jerry Schmidt is from Iowa.

regards,

Donald
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Re: Info

Postby Kyle MacLea » Mon Nov 23, 2015 8:14 pm

These are fascinating, especially given Donald and Jerry's connections to the Red River Settlement!

Kyle
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New Hampshire, USA
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Re: Info

Postby jmlivingstone » Tue Nov 24, 2015 11:08 am

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-g ... t-34899609

Another site that may prove useful when it comes online,

John.
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Re: Info

Postby jmvleasa » Fri Nov 27, 2015 4:31 am

great read, also the response answered a couple of questions for me. My great great great grandmother was Nancy (Livingston) Clink. She must have been very young when they left the Red River Colony. If the oral tradition I received from my great grand mother is correct Nancy must have been born at Red River.
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Re: Info

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Mon Nov 30, 2015 2:45 am

Hi,

Nancy Livingston (Mrs. John Clink) was my great-great grandfather. I don't have a written account from the family of that canoe ride to Upper Canada after Donald Cameron and Lord Selkirks foes in the Northwest Company compelled Miles and other 114 to leave the Red River but I used to have a summary of the route they probably took. They left in June so the weather would not have been too cold but it was a long journey traveling by rivers and lakes for the settlers and for Mile's Livingston young children. I understood from my father that Nancy used to tell her family years later about the trip although she was just and infant at the time. I guess her father and mother Janet Livingston also apparently a Livingston likely told her about this arduous and lengthy canoe trip across the wilderness of Canada in the summer of 1815 to reach their new home in Upper Canada. I don't think anything was written down about the trip it was just something my grandfather talked about I guess from an old story that his father Nancy's son had told him as a boy in the late 1800's. No doubt at that time lots of details with the story that were later forgotten. I have however pieced together the general route and had that on a piece of paper at one time. I know quite a bit about Miles and the family but have not bothered to publish their story as I am so busy with other Clan Livingstone research. I think that all of the settlers that left for Upper Canada were labeled as "deserters" from Lord Selkirk and his settlement but I think that is bit of a generalization.

regards,

Donald
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Re: Info

Postby jmvleasa » Mon Nov 30, 2015 4:31 am

My great great grandfather was Hugh Clink, Nancys son. He is buried in the Lynn township cemetery in the Brown City, Yale area of Michigan. Hughs father John Utter Clink is also buried there. Someday I hope to do some research on Myles and find out what I can on his life before red river.
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Re: Info

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Tue Dec 01, 2015 1:14 pm

Hi

Here was one of my postings regarding Miles from way back when:


In my own Livingston family I have had some challenges in terms of birth info to deal with.
In the Case of my great-great-great grandfather Miles Livingston b.1775 in Argyllshire there is his June 20, 1812 marriage recorded as a marriage entry in the Kilarrow Parish records of the Old Round Church at the port of Bowmore, Island of Islay, the original building still survives. My Livingstons migrated in the late 1700's/early 1800's to Islay where they found apparently work as carpenters, boatbuilders and barrel makers presumingly of use in the Whiskey industry there. Some of them ended up in Kilmeny and Kilarrow apparently. Miles my ancestor married Janet or Janette Livingston in Bowmore, Kilarrow Parish but the Presbyterian/Church of Scotland minister notes that Miles Livingston and his bride Janet Livingston are not of the Parish or from Islay but "natives of Morvern". He also notes that they were on their way to America. They were actually boarding the Schooner Staffa at Mull or at Bowmore, Islay with other Islay and Mull Settlers for the port of SLigo Ireland where a Hudsons Bay Company vessel the Robert Taylor was waiting to take the settlers to Lord Selkirk's Red River Colony at the time in Hudsons Bay company territory in British North America. In Lord Selkirk's Red River Colony record my ancestor Miles Livingston was initially hired as boatbuilder along with an apparent cousin Donald Livingstone who states in a 1817 deposition that he was also born in Morvern. Both Miles and Donald are listed on a list of settlers who arrived later in 1812 at Hudsons Bay on the way to Red River Colony about 800 miles south of Hudsons Bay. THe REd river colony records recorded by a clerk however include Miles and Donald as being from Mull along with a group of Mcleans from Mull and others from Mull who were aboard the RObert Taylor with the Livingstons. SO some people going through the Red River colony records may assume that Miles and Donald were from Mull rather than Morvern. The red river records are helpful however in that they record an age when Miles was at the colony and it suggests he was born about 1775.

A more interesting challenge to the marriage info that my ancestor was born in Morvern, Argyllshire is a record from nearby Island of Lismore contained in the old Lismore Parish records which records the baptism of a Myles Livingston in the year 1775 the son of Donald Livingston and Christine Campbell of Cloichlea, Island of Lismore. This record was first brought to the attention of a late cousin in the 1980s who was researching the Livingstons and was in touch the late Baron Alastair Livngstone our Clan Chief at that time. The Baron was familiar with the Lismore Livingston records and noticed there was Myles Livingston baptised in 1775 on the Island. So depending on what record you come across one could assume that my ancestor Miles Livingston was born in Morvern, the neighbouring Island of Lismore or neighbouring Mull. I lean toward the notion he was born in Morvern. THe fact that it says so in his marriage record and was the information he provided to the Islay minister suggests the information came directly from Miles himself. Secondly the fact that the other boatbuilder Donald Livingston born abt. 1791 who acccompanied Miles to the Lord Selkirk colony in 1812 stated in an 1817 deposition which I have a copy of that he was also a native of Morvern also makes me think that these Livingston kin of mine all originated from Morvern and not Mull or Lismore. Still it an odd coincidence that there was a family residing on the Island of Lismore in 1775 who also had a son named Miles Livingston. It is very curious and frustrating thing when there are discrepancies in the birth records. I know you have had to struggle with some formidable challenges with the information on your Argyllshire ancestor ANgus Livingston so I can relate to your own Livingston genealogy situation.

What is known and Baron Neil Livingstone pointed this out me a few years ago is that the name MIles Livingston is both peculiar to the Morvern and neighbouring Lismore records and seems in the Argyllshire record quite specific in this area in Western Argyllshire. Also a family living in the Savary, Morvern the Mcinnes family who were cousins of the Livingstons there used the name Miles. There was an old-timer Miles McInnes who lived at Savary for many years in the 1800's who I wondered if he might have been a cousin of my Morvern born Miles Livingston. Unfortunately if my great-great-great grandfather Miles Livingston was born in Morvern Parish in 1775 there is no surviving birth or baptismal record for him in Morvern because the Morvern Parish Church of Scotland parish records do not survive before the early 1800's unlike the Lismore and APpin Parish records that date from the 1750's.

I might add to this that adding to the confusion of Mile's birthplace in Western Argyll is a clerical record from the early years of Lord Selkirk's Red Colony that indicates Miles Livingstons age and that he originated from Mull. In fact many of those scots who travelled to the Red River Colony aboard the Hudsons Bay Company vessel The Robert Taylor wre of Mull origin such as McLeans but there were some from the Isle of Islay who has also been recruited to the settlement by the highland agent. Both Donald Livingston 1791-1876 and apparently our ancestor Miles Livingston b.1775 were boatbuilders working on the Isle of Islay and residing their with other family but both Livingstons have records I have locate in which they themselves clearly state they were actually born in Morvern. Mile's marriage record from 1812 record just a few days before he left for Lord Selkirk's colony states he and his wife (second wife) Janet also a Livingston were natives of the Morvern Parish in Western Argyll and not neighbouring Lismore or Mull or the Isle of Islay. And other adult Livingston and boatbuilder Donald Livingston also indicated some years later in a sworn deposition that he also was a native of Morvern Parish which makes me further suspect that my ancestor Miles Livingston and Jerry Schmidt's great-great-great Uncle Donald Livingston 1791-1876 were perhaps cousins.

regards,

Donald



Donald
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Re: Info

Postby jmvleasa » Wed Dec 02, 2015 2:16 am

I actually found the birth record of Myles Livingston son of Donald and Christine born on Lismore on Scotlands People tonight. It appears to a photo copy of the hand written parish record. Having just gotten into this I can see how this can be frustrating with so many different records out there. I have seen Myles as Myles and Miles, I have seen things stating that his daughter Nancy was born in Scotland and in Canada and just last night I saw a record on ancestry.com saying Nancy died in Michigan in the 1880's. Her husband is buried in Michigan but everyone I have talked to about Nancy here in the forum and other members of the family has come to a dead end as far as Nancy goes. Most people think she probably died was buried in the Lambton Ontario area before her husband John Utter Clink came to Michigan to settle in the same area as his son. Anyway I can see how easy it could be to just "fill in" information to fit your preconceived notions I have to remember to not just to make the assumption without exhausting all ways of verification. When in Scotland last year we went to Culloden and one of my friends asked if "THE" Donald Livingston was an ancestor I told him it is a good chance he is a cousin being as where he was from and where my known ancestors were from but I didn't believe there was a direct line back. Then I started doing some basic research, apparently in the 17th century the name Donald was very popular in our family.
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Re: Info

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Wed Dec 02, 2015 5:13 am

Hi,

No Nancy Livingston daughter of Miles Livingston was definitively born and baptised 1813 at the River River Colony. With no presbyterian minister at the settlement Miles McDonnell the settlement leader performed the baptism. I have the date somewhere in 1813. What is surprising is that the baptismal for Nancy and her brother Hugh Livingston and some of the children of Donald Livingston and others from the earliest period of the settlement actually survived with the turmoil and the destruction and abandonment of the settlement in 1815 and again in 1816. Subsequently some of the settlers returned and new ones arrived but somehow a document with the birth or baptismal records of Nancy and other children of some of the original settlers was found by minister I think some years later. It is just luck that it was burned when the settlement was put to the torch in July of 1815 by Lord Selkirk's opponents in the North West Company who saw the establishment of a settlement at Red River a threat to their fur trading business in the area. Selkirk was infuriated that so many of his settlers deserted the settlement for Upper Canada and by the fact that took some items that was property of the settlement. I noticed that Miles took a musket and I think some tools. For the first few years when he arrived in Upper Canada in October of 1815 with his family, he may of used some of those tools when took up boatbuilding in Etobicoke Township, York County, Ontario. By 1819 he petitioned the Government of Upper Canada for land grant which he received that year in Esquesing Township,Halton County, Upper Canada. There is more to the story but I just have not had time to get beyond a couple of lengthy unedited drafts of history. Too busy with Clan Livingstone related stuff for completing my own Livingston family bio. I guess I find other people's Livingstons more interesting than mine own.

regards,

Donald
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