New Livingstone Australia Tartan

[Kyle MacLea]

I tried contacting the registrant of the new Livingstone Australia tartan to find out more...but thus far no response. Anyway, thought the rest of you might like to have a look:

http://www.tartanregister.gov.uk/tartan ... ?ref=10051

Kyle=

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Kyle,

Can inquiries be made as to whether he would be interested in the Maclea Livingstone Society and participating in the Maclea Livingstone DNA project?

regards,

Donald

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Kyle,

Yes there seems to have been several Livingstone tartans created since tartan 1003 or whichever one was first. A few may have been designed for a specific family. I presume 1003 or the other one which is somewhat similiar were used by the clan well before 1906 when a Livingston tartan was first published in one of the Johnston books though I can't give you an accurate date or information on the origin of the classic Livingstone tartan 1003. Certainly there is probably a good possibility that 1003 or another similar was worn by highland Macleas or one of the other clans that fought with us at Culloden and it became one of the preferred tartans sometime in the 1800's. Certainly it is understood that old Donald Livingstone (1728-1816) of Savary, Morvern wore his tartan kilt in his old age.

regards

DOnald

[Kyle MacLea]

Hi Kyle,

Can inquiries be made as to whether he would be interested in the Maclea Livingstone Society and participating in the Maclea Livingstone DNA project?

regards,

Donald

I let him know about all of this.... we'll see if he responds!

Kyle=

[Kyle MacLea]

Yes there seems to have been several Livingstone tartans created since tartan 1003 or whichever one was first. A few may have been designed for a specific family. I presume 1003 or the other one which is somewhat similiar were used by the clan well before 1906 when a Livingston tartan was first published in one of the Johnston books though I can't give you an accurate date or information on the origin of the classic Livingstone tartan 1003. Certainly there is probably a good possibility that 1003 or another similar was worn by highland Macleas or one of the other clans that fought with us at Culloden and it became one of the preferred tartans sometime in the 1800's. Certainly it is understood that old Donald Livingstone (1728-1816) of Savary, Morvern wore his tartan kilt in his old age.

With the new Tartan Register, it's much easier to weave new and register new tartans as well... and it seems that with the Gathering this year there has been a real rash of new entries. I get daily emails when new ones are registered, just for fun. Most are for individuals, small families, sports teams, that kind of thing.

One thing I did NOT know about tartan was that though the threadcount was constant, sometimes the shades used varied. So, you might have gone to your weaver and said, I'd like the usual tartan but I'd like you to mute the colors a bit because I want to use this hunting/hiking/whatever. So, "custom" weaves of traditional tartans sometimes varied the hues but were otherwise identical.

Matthew Newsome has some great history of tartan and information for those interested! http://www.albanach.org/quair.html

Kyle=

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Kyle,

Often the tartan sites will cite Robert Bain the author of a tartan book in the 1920's as the source for Tartan 1003 one of our earliest tartans but this tartan or the one similar is included in an illustration in a 1906 Johnston book. This however tells us very little about the orgins of our earliest tartan that might have worn by Baron Livingstone's grandfather or greatgrandfather in the 1800's. I presume it to have been been Tartan 1003 or one quite similar. Two of early ones one of which seems to have been 1003 had different thread counts I think but both had red and green and bit of black I think. The number of the other one slips my mind. They were not the same but somewhat similar. Tartan 1003 is probably the earliest attempt at a Livingstone tartan in sometime in the 1800's based perhaps as has been suggested by a tartan worn at Culloden by the Macdonnells. I am however wondering if this tartan or one similar was not worn by Macleas as well at Culloden given that a number of tartan experts believe that at the time of Culloden, highland clans were still going with a district tartan rather than a specific clan tartan. Whether this Culloden connection is correct or not the person whom was instrumental in having a Livingstone tartan produced for the first time by a factory weaver in the lowlands rather than a cottage weaver in Argyll presumingly in the mid to late 1800's perhaps earlier, either drew from some knowledge of an early pattern worn in the 18th century by Macleas and later Livingstones or he picked a tartan that had some personal appeal or even historic significance we know nothing about. At one time I had traced the Company that Robert Bain probably contacted for his book in the 1920's and thought about seeing if they or some of the old manufacturers of tartan elsewhere might have kept records of the original Livingstone tartan designs and who ordered them or had them designed. I never however followed up on this endevour.

regards,

Donald

[Kyle MacLea]

I presume it to have been been Tartan 1003 or one quite similar. Two of early ones one of which seems to have been 1003 had different thread counts I think but both had red and green and bit of black I think. The number of the other one slips my mind. They were not the same but somewhat similar. Tartan 1003 is probably the earliest attempt at a Livingstone tartan in sometime in the 1800's based perhaps as has been suggested by a tartan worn at Culloden by the Macdonnells.

This question is still very much worth pursuing, but it definitely requires some dogged determination. We should see from the old Forum where we left off with things and see if we can't find out if there are any more leads to follow.

I still tend to think that 1003 and the one that looks similar seem to draw on the same essential essence, and I suspect it has some historical reality, whether it be as a "district" type tartan common in the area or as a special clan tartan. Either way, the reality is that SINCE then, it has been recognized as a clan tartan and so it has some validity regardless.

Kyle=

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Kyle,

Yes clearly 1003 is preferred. I would have liked to have asked Baron Alastair Livingstone if he had learned from his family, Uncles, cousins etc. the origins of the current tartan 1003 worn by the clan. At this point all I can think of is checking with the old tartan manufacturers for information. The original edition of \Robert Bains book at our library names a tartan manufacturer. I used to have the name but have since forgotten it. They were still in business as I recall.

regards,

Donald

[Kyle MacLea]

I would have liked to have asked Baron Alastair Livingstone if he had learned from his family, Uncles, cousins etc. the origins of the current tartan 1003 worn by the clan.

Since the current Chief doesn't seem to know, it seems unlikely the old Chief would have either. Especially considering he became Chief when we was quite small and unable to have picked up any information from his own father, I believe.

At this point all I can think of is checking with the old tartan manufacturers for information. The original edition of \Robert Bains book at our library names a tartan manufacturer. I used to have the name but have since forgotten it. They were still in business as I recall.

At some point, we should dig out this information again and see where it goes!

Kyle=

[D.W.Livingston]

Canadian Livingstone wrote: At this point all I can think of is checking with the old tartan manufacturers for information. The original edition of \Robert Bains book at our library names a tartan manufacturer. I used to have the name but have since forgotten it. They were still in business as I recall.



At some point, we should dig out this information again and see where it goes!

I could not search the Archive forum OR the information I looked for wasn't tagged.. I looked up BAINS, I lookd up TARTAN and both said no relevant data.

I went to the old site and saw a post from Donald about Robert Bain
http://www.clanmclea.co.uk/forum/Show-M ... sp?ID=2554

Located Robert Bain original edition of his book "The Clans and Tartans of Scotland" publishsed in July of 1938. Robert Bain was the City Librarian of Glasgow at the time. While many tartan scholars refer to Robert Bain as the source of Tartan 1003, in this First Edition from 1938, the Publishers acknowledge cuttings of tartans for reproduction and advice and guidance from the firm of Peter MacArthur and Company of Glasgow. Peter MacArthur and Company is still very much a part of the lucrative tartan industry and I noticed that they are located today in Biggar, Lanarkshire, Scotland. Perhaps they have some information on our elusive Tartan 1003. I am wondering if they should be quoted as the source of Tartan 1003 rather than Robert Bain.

While it is often stated that there is a Macdonnell of Kepoch tartan that the Livingstones may have found the inspiration for our tartan design, I also noticed in Bains 1938 book that the McColl tartan looks very similiar to ours. THe McColls being listed as a sept of Stewart of Appin that fought with our people at the Battle of Culloden.

The Livingstone Tartan in the 1938 and in subsequent editions 1953 and 1961 that I viewed at the library all contained a tartan that was red with black lines and small green squares. Oddly enough the 1976 edition is missing the green squares and only shows up in the picture as being red with black lines. The librarian I thought this to be some sort of printing error rather than a new Livingstone tartan, but I am not certain. We have 1989 edition I think that the red and black tartan is also in that one. I will check that later on today. As the Bain book is used by many family researchers this should be clarified one way or another I feel.

Donald (Livingstone) Clink

Researcher further I find:
Company Name: Peter Macarthur And Company Limited
Parent Company: Calzeat And Co Limited
======================================
Company Name: Calzeat And Co Limited http://www.calzeat.com/
HQ Address: BIGGAR
Business Description: Manufacture of other textiles not elsewhere classified
Sectors: Engineering & Materials

The website is a one page saying they will be coming soon but we can send an email to info@calzeat.com or to the Sales Director BOB GALBRAITH

If Calzeat bought out Peter Macarthur I don't know how much old records they might have... or they might have great records.