James Livingston

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Re: James Livingston

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:15 am

Hi John,

I finally found the gravestone of James Livingston and Mary McMillan at Woodland Cemetery in Egremont Township, Grey County, Ontario. It turns out they are not buried with their sons Duncan and Angus who were buried at Mt. Forest Cemetery in Southgate Egremont Township, Grey County and indeed it does refer to them on the gravestone as both being natives of Islay, Argyll as Debbie had stated.

Now I am may be putting on a limb I have a feeling that the gravestone should probably have stated that they were natives of Colonsay and family members born in Canada got the Islay and Colonsay mixed up. Tell me what your thoughts are on this. I could be wrong, but the fact that there were a lot of McMillans and Livingstons residing in close proximity to one another on Colonsay when the two of them were married in 1842 makes me strongly suspect Mary was of a Colonsay McMillan family and not from Islay and the same likely goes with her husband James. You will note that there even three McMillan relatives apparently living with your ancestor Angus Livingston at Urasaig, Colonsay who likely also had a Colonsay connection. I have no birth records to prove they are natives of Colonsay not Islay but i think in my own opinion I suspect it is a mistake. Every once a while I find errors on grave stones mostly errors in birth dates rather than death dates but with birth dates being the most common gravestone errors, place of birth errors would also be quit easy to make. I asked a couple a people if they could see a confusion possibly arising with Colonsay and Islay and they expressed the view that yes it was entirely possible that could have happened given that the two Islands sound somewhat similar. I am pretty certain they were natives of Colonsay not Islay much more certain I think than I am about James being a son of your ancestor Angus.

It is interesting perhaps for family researchers to note that James Livingston and Mary McMillan were buried in Woodland cemetery in Egremont Township, Grey County Ontario with two of their children in this case their daughter Bessie Livingston 1862-1886 and their eldest daughter Ann Livingston Ray b. 1843 d. 1912 Mrs. James Ray who was born in Colonsay shortly before they left for Canada according to the Parish records there. Ann's husband James Ray had been buried in this cemetery earlier in 1872.
Here is the gravestone of James Livingston and Mary McMillan:
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/105 ... =108522661

It is interesting that some of the children of James Livingston and Mary McMillan of Colonsay in later years ended up in Grey County, Ontario where Donald Livingston and Catharine Campbell's children born in Ross of Mull which is nearby Colonsay also settled earlier in the 1850's, but Grey County is a large County that had a highland Scottish settlement in different townships and while the two family groups might actually be related in some way distantly, I have no proof that they knew of each other and that these two family groups were closely related. I suspect from a DNA perspective they might likely prove to be ancestrally connected but whether closely related I can't say for certain as yet.

regards,

Donald
Canadian Livingstone
 
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Re: James Livingston

Postby jmlivingstone » Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:59 pm

http://colonsay.org.uk/history/colonsay-family-history

Hi Donald,

I just had a look at Colonsay records, the only Mary McMillan I can find is the daughter of Angus McMillan & Mary McNeil, christened 02 May 1826, no Mary born 1823-24,

John
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Re: James Livingston

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:35 pm

Hi John,

Yes I recall now that back in 2011, it became clear that Margaret and her brother Malcolm mentioned in her 1910 obituary were quite like born in Islay rather than Colonsay and must have gone to Colonsay later or something like that. So the other possibility regarding the info on the James Livingston and Margaret McMillan tombstone was that the information that they were both natives of Islay, Argyll might be at least partially half correct in that there is some Bowmore Parish Islay, Argyll church of scotland info I notice back in 2011 that had slipped my mind more recently, that suggests that James's wife was probably born on the Isle of Islay and her brother Malcolm McMillan. Her 1910 obituary in Ontario Canada as Debbie mentions she had a brother Malcolm McMillan that also settled in Ontario. Now this again was one of the reasons why I thought that the James Livingston residing with your Angus Livingston had a family connection because oddly there was a Malcolm Livingston residing who married a Christy Livingston and their newborn con living for some reason with your ancestor Angus Livingston. I can say for certain it is Mary McMillan's brother and I of course what the family connection or if there is one with your ancestor Angus Livingston but for some perplexing reason there is james Livingston who may not be Angus Livingston's living with him and then Christy Livingston McMillan who is too old to be Angus Livingston's daughter Christy born a decade or more earlier and then I can't say for sure if this Malcolm Livingston is the brother of Malcolm Livingston. But at the time I thought that this was Mary McMillan's brother.

But i think it possible that Mary McMillan was a native of Islay but not James Livingston who I pretty certain is of Mull ancestry and even possibly might have some Morvern ancestry and be closely related to my Livingston family. Wont know that for certain until a 111 Y upgrade is done with James descendant and there marker results compared with the 3 or 4 Livingstons of documented Morvern ancestry matching very closely with Cousin 67-1, 67-2 and 67-3. or 111-2, 111-3 and 111 a stable increase of 1 for three Movern Livington matches. The James Livingston match is 67-2 which could suggest depending on what happens with a 111 y upgrade he too could possibly share before Mull and Colonsay a Morvern match. I think all that needs to done is a 111y upgrade and a comparison with the other 4 Morvern Livingstons matching with my cousin. In a nutshell so far the other odd element to all this confusion is that it is possible James Livingston whom I thought was related to you seems at least according to the DNA test to be a much closer relation likely to my Morvern Livingstons in the 18th century than to Angus Livingston of Colonsay and your Livingstons. I am pretty certain of that just looking at the 67 marker results.

But I stray a bit from Mary McMillan. I think Debbie early on made a good point in favour of the notion that at least mary McMillan was of Islay origins and her brother Malcolm McMillan. She definitely had a brother named Malcolm McMillan might not be the one living with old Angus in Colonsay but he is mentioned in Mary McMillan's 1910 obituary in Ontario Canada that Debbie located and shared with us at the forum in Feb. of 2011:

I have an obituary of Mary McMillan which states "...Deceased whose maiden name was Mary McMillan, was born in the Highlands of Scotland about 86 years ago. She was married to James Livingston there in May 1842. Next year they came to Canada...There are living also a brother, Mr. Malcolm McMillan, Toronto, and a sister, Mrs Thos. Vogan, Wiarton (Ontario)..." Source: Mount Forest Confederate Jan 13, 1910.



And I should John that did post this message back when Debbie was in touch with us a few years in which I acknowledged that in the Bowmore Parish, Islay Church of scotland records there was as Mary McMillan born or baptized o7/05/1824 and who had a brother Malcolm McMillan 24/11/1817. Given the information in Mary's 1910 obituary that she had a brother Malcolm I think back then I was considering that Mary was likely of Islay origin but as now I was still convinced that James likely was residing in Colonsay possibly the James living with Angus Livingston and possibly his son, though now given the DNA results i am convinced he is not likely a son of Angus and not even necessarily a close relative of Angus Livingston but rather a more distant relative of that whole mull and morvern western Argyllshire livington group but with perhaps a closer family connection to my own neighbouring Morvern Livington family group. But until there is 111y upgrade test I am just suspecting that may in fact the case. Better to wait until there is more proof with the 111y if that ever happens in the future. Anyways this was my message regarding the possibility that Mary McMillan was of Islay that I had forgotten from a few years ago when Debbie was visiting this Forum also from Feb. of 2011:

[i][i]Hi Debbie and John,
Is it possible that Mary McMillan born abt. 1824 who married James Livington at Colonsay in 1842 and her brother Malcolm Livington born abt. 1816? were instead born at Bowmore Parish, on the Isle of Islay. Isle of Islay was mentioned on a family tombstone I am told.
Ok I could not find Malcolm McMillan born abt. 1816 and a sister Mary McMillan born abt. 1824 together in the Colonsay Parish records but interestingly I did find a brother and sister Malcolm McMillan born 24/11/1817 and Mary McMillan born 07/05/1824 born in Bowmore Parish, Isle of Islay to parents Archibald McMillan and Flora Mcfayden which given that Islay Parish is mysteriously mentioned on the family tombstone in Canada may indicate that Mary McMillan (Mrs James Livingston was in fact born there rather than Colonsay where we do now James Livingston and his wife Mary McMillan or Macmillan were married in 1842.
[/i][/i]

Given that the tombstone of James Livingston and Mary McMillan does refer to them as "natives of Islay" it might be possible that Mary the last one buried in 1910 was in fact of a native of Islay but that her husband James Livingston was of Mull (with some Morvern ancestry perhaps) and had lived for a time in Colonsay and was married there. Anyways it is definitely one of the more perplexing Livingstone family mysteries we have run into at the Forum. I guess I would conclude that upon reflection I don't think they are both from Colonsay and I don't think they are both from Islay, but it sure looks like Mary and her brother Malcolm were buried there.

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/105 ... ivingstone

Other interesting thing about this is that I checked for that Malcolm Livingston and his wife Christy Livingston that were married in Colonsay in 1839 of 1840 and had a son Duncan who were living with your ancestor Angus Livingston and his wife. Well they disappeared from Argyllshire and dont seem to be in the 1851 Scottish census. Did they go to Canada? I looked for them there but could not find them so I dont know if they could be Mary's brother and his family with his age wrong in the 1851 census. And the later information from 1910 regarding Mary's brother was helpful but I never did find him around 1910 in Toronto. There were a number of Scottish Malcolm McMillans in Ontario but I could not find the one I was looking for. But maybe I will find him someday in the old records if I start the search once again. It is strange coincidences in the information in that 1841 Census info at Angus Livingstons residence at Urisaig, Colonsay that really perplexes me. There is a James about the same age as the one who subsequently shows up with Mary McMillan in Canada and then there is living with your Angus Livingston a Malcolm Livingston married to a Christy Livingston who turns out to be the wrong Christy Livingston. You see how odd this all this. It almost made sense and then it didn't if you see what I mean. Anyways looking back and refreshing my memory regarding my look at the Bowmore Parish, Islay records of a Mary born or baptized around 1824 who had a younger brother named Malcolm makes me think this may be the Mary that married James livingston in Colonsay in 1842. It certainly would explain the Islay info on the later gravestone in Canada and the information the children and grandchildren no doubt had in 1910 of an Islay origin. But whether her husband James Livingston was also a native of Islay, I am not so certain.

regards,

Donald
Canadian Livingstone
 
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Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: James Livingston

Postby deblivingstone » Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:24 pm

Greetings All!

I have been following the threads for James Livingstone & Mary McMillan from Donald & John recently & found some interesting theories. It's been quite awhile & it's exiting to get back into the search. Unfortunately, I haven't anything new to add at my end regarding the parentage of James. I've been trying to keep things updated as much as I can. Welcome Penny! If you have anything to add to the family, please let me know.
While reading through the recent posts, I agree that the 111 marker would help to narrow things down a bit. I ordered the 111 upgrade just before Christmas & hopefully will have some answers from that.
Thank you Donald & John for your continued interest in trying to solve the mystery.

Happy New Year!

Debbie
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Re: James Livingston

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:49 pm

Hi Debbie,


Happy New Year to you as well and welcome back to the Clan Maclea Livingstone Forum. That is great news about the 111Y upgrade and from the 67 marker results my Livingston cousin Lloyd of Morvern parish, Argyll ancestry is 67-2 with your Michael of Colonsay ancestry. aches. My closest matches in addition to you are almost all of Morvern Parish Livingston ancestry but Michael and one other Livingston not known to be of Morvern ancestry and thought to be like Michael of Colonsay ancestry also appear to be relatively close at least at 67 markers tested. Michael's 111 marker test will help to better confirm how close his closest 67 marker matches actually are. My cousin's closest matches are mostly with Livingstons of Morvern Parish, Argyll ancestry but for reasons unknown at 67 marker Michael and one other said to connected to Colonsay are also a relatively close match at 67-2 and 67-3. The gentleman at 67-3 we have lost touch with and has not done the 111 test so it is hard to know where he would be with 111 test. Michael test however will confirm for certain how closely related he is to my Livingston cousin with the additional markers tested. 67-1 is my cousin's closest match so 67-2 is relatively close as well, but the 111 y test upgrade I think will confirm if this close match can continues with the additional markers tested. I had one match at 67-5 that jumped to 111-10 so I am curious what the marker similarties and differences marker by marker with my Livingston cousin Lloyd a total of 111 tested this time round by Michael .

Glad to hear from you and that you are still interested in your Livingston family history and the DNA research. The number of Livingstons in the group of which Michael is a part of has grown considerably over the last 10 years as you have probably noticed. I am anticipating at least one more new Livingston in the group by the end of January with this group if the results are as suspected.
There are now about 26 or more Livingstons with the match group that my cousin Lloyd and Michael are in, but two of the participants are sadly now deceased and some others we have lost touch with as they have not kept contact info up to date or perhaps may have lost interest in the DNA project. Not all of the 26 Livingstons in this group match with one another closely and some are more distant matches than others and not showing up on the matches pages with some in the group, but their marker results are consistent to be part of the this Western Argyll Maclea Livingstone match group.

Can you check to make certain that the e-mail contact information with familytreedna matches is up to date so that Michael's closest matches can contact you if possible in the future with genealogy . You are one of my cousin Lloyd's closest matches interestingly enough. I sponsored Lloyd with the test back in 2006 and I am the principal contact for my cousin Lloyd's test and have been working with some other Livingston in Michael's group over last 10 years or more.

I am hoping we can keep in touch regarding the closest Livingston Y DNA matches as we continue to make some encouraging progress with the DNA testing with this Western Argyllshire Maclea Livingstone group and in identifying the Livingstons Argyllshire of Maclea Livingston ancestry who are match with this DNA match group. There are others in this DNA group whom also may be a close match to Michael whom I am currently in touch with and have been doing genealogy research in recent years.

Familytreedna had in recent months discounted for a limited time their tests so I would imagine their lab may be swamped, so it might be a month or more before the upgrade is completed.

For more than 10 years now I have been helping Livingstons in the DNA project with Michael's group with family history assistance and encouraging a number of Livingstons of Western Argyll origin like Michael to consider participating in the DNA project and the group has is continuing to grow. By the end of the 2019 I am hoping to reach the goal of at least 30 Livingstons in this Western Argyll Maclea Livingstone group.

regards

Donald (Livingstone) Clink
Clan Maclea Livingstone Society
Historian
Canadian Livingstone
 
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Re: James Livingston

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:08 pm

Hi Debbie,

With the 111 y marker upgrade Michael continues to be closely matched with a group of 4 Livingstons closely matching with a Morvern Parish, Argyll subgroup of Michaels Maclea Livingstone Western Argyll Match group. Our Maclea Livingstones that lived in parishes throughout Western Argyllshire frequently migrated over the centuries from parish to parish as did mine. While Michael's Livingston ancestor married and resided in Colonsay, Argyll before departing for Canada in 1843, it seems likely that his ancestors earlier in the 18th century had a family connection with a branch of the Maclea Livingstones that lived in neighbouring Morvern Parish where my ancestors and my cousin Lloyd Livingston's ancestors one of Michael's matches lived in the 1700's. Interestingly one of Michael and Lloyd's matches is Stephen Livingston who is a direct descendant of Hugh (Ewen) Livingston a brother of the famous Morvern Parish, Argyll hero Donald Livingstone 1728-1816 who as a young man of about 18 in 1745 was recruited into the Appin Regiment of Captain Charles Stewart of Ardsheil, Appin, Argyll and this regiment served with Bonnie Prince Charlie and his Jacobite forces in the 1745-1746 Jacobite Rebellion. At the battle of Culloden in April of 1746, as Bonnie Prince Charlie's forces were defeated by the forces of the King's son the Duke of Cumberland, Stephen's great-great-great-great Uncle Donald Livingstone retrieved the Appin Regiment banner from the battle field at Culloden Moor that day in 1746 and made his way back to highland Argyllshire and returned his Appin Regiment banner to the Stewarts of Appin. Michael's family branch in the 18th century and my Livingston cousin Lloyd and 2 or three other LIvingstons in that match group are relatively closely connected with their 18th century Livingston family branches to Stephen Livingston's 18th century Livingston family branch in some way I suspect as a result of the realitively close DNA matches at 67 and 111 markers tested. Some those matching realtively closely with Stephen have 19th century Scottish records linking them to Morvern and and some dont, but there are about 4 or 5 at least including Michael who seem to be relatively close matches with Stephen Livingston and my cousin Lloyd who are among those with Argyll Parish, Scottish records from the early 19th and 18th century indicating Morvern Parish,Argyll ancestry.

For what ever reason Michael's closest matches seem to be closer matched with Livingstons of Morvern Parish ancestry rather than Mull ancestry as had been earlier suspected. I have known for some time with the 67 marker results that Michael was a relatively close match with cousin Lloyd and Stephen and with a few others closely matched with Lloyd and Stephens, but I could only be certain of that when Michael did the 111 upgrade. So that is why I was particularly pleased to hear the news of the upgrade.This does unfortunately tell you anything more about James Livingston's ancestors or prove or disprove that his Father was Angus Livingston 1775-1847 formerly of Ross of mull and later of Colonsay, Argyll, but it does confirm by DNA testing that Michael's ancestor and yours James Livingson of Colonsay was of a Maclea Livingston family branch in Western Argyllshire that was related somehow to my Livingston cousin Lloyd Livingstons Morvern Argyll family branch and Stephen Livingston's famly branch and some other's of Michael's closest Livingston matches.For most of the people tested little is known of the families in Western Argyllshire in the 18th century and before that so it is helpful that Stephen, my cousin Lloyd, and two others in that large Livingston match group of which your Michael is a match have ancestors who lived in the early 19th century and who were born in the 1700's mentioned in the Argyllshire records of the early 1800's as having been of Morvern Parish which has helped me to make sense of those who are from Morvern Parish as has been helpful that some other Livingston in this match group more distantly matched to Lloyd, Stephen, Michael and the others, have info in some cases linking their ancestors to nearby Mull, argyll. THis has helped to identify the origins of the lIvingston ancestors of a number of those of matching with Lloyd, Stephen and Michaels Y chromosome DNA match group.

regards,

Donald
Canadian Livingstone
 
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Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: James Livingston

Postby Pennster62 » Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:13 am

Hi again,
I finally made my way back to this site. I am going to forward this info to my Mom's 2 Livingstone cousins ,the only ones left. They are in their 80' & 90's. Not sure if they can add anything.
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Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2013 4:54 am

Re: James Livingston

Postby Pennster62 » Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:13 am

Hi again,
I finally made my way back to this site. I am going to forward this info to my Mom's 2 Livingstone cousins ,the only ones left. They are in their 80' & 90's. Not sure if they can add anything.
Pennster62
 
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Oct 14, 2013 4:54 am

Re: James Livingston

Postby Canadian Livingstone » Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:18 am

Hi Pennster62,

Welcome to the Clan Maclea Livingstone Forum. Not sure if you were researching James Livingston and Mary McMillan who resided in Colonsay, Argyll in the early 1840's and who came to what is today Ontario, Canada in 1843, but glad that you found some information whatever it may have been at our Forum that was of interest to you and perhaps helpful to your Livingston family research. If you any specific questions regarding your Livingston kin that come to mind don't hesitate to ask.

regards,

Donald (Livingstone) Clink
Historian
Clan Maclea Livingstone Society
Canadian Livingstone
 
Posts: 2635
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: James Livingston

Postby jmlivingstone » Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:33 am

Pennster62,

I approved your posts on James Livingstone, unfortunately, instead of appearing on the forum, it has disappeared, can you please resend the post.
I've checked through everywhere I can think of, but can find no trace of the post.

The post was of particular interest to myself, as Angus was my 3rd. g/grandfather.

Sorry about this, still don't understand what went wrong,

John.
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