The McConleys of Appin

[Rob Livingston2]

'There is a McNiel who is a 24 of 25 marker match with the Lismore Livingstones.

[Grant South1]

Hmm..... Here is the Colla signature, if I remember correctly, 1st cousin's of Niall Mor's father. 13 24 14 10 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 30 18 9 10 11 11 25 15 19 30 15 15 17 17. So we wouldn't expect to much difference in these two Royal lines given the genealogy.

[Rob Livingston2]

I should mention too, that McNeil is a name mentioned in the 1518 bond of manrent between Clan McDonleavie and the Earl of Argyll.

[Grant South1]

I would like to continue in answer to the Young Bachuil's posting. I believe the foundation for a misrepresentation of many of the old genealogies was the ever present need to politically align, with the O'Neills. The inclusion of Anradhan to the O'Neill genealogy has been questioned by others as he does not appear in early manuscripts. This has also been the view of other scholars who have researched the line of the MacSweeneys and their inclusion as O'Neill cadets in Donegal. Of interest Suibhne [Sween/Sweeney] does not appear as a personal name in the O'Neill genealogy. Anradhan is not mentioned in the Annals regarding the Ui'Neill either, and so primary sourse material for his inclusion in that genealogy does not exist. I personally think the evidence points toward the derbfine [true family] of the Dal Fiatach as the origin of our McLea's, based on what is recorded in the Annals. The Kingdom of Ulidia was fought over by two competing tribes the Dal Fiatach and the Dal Araide. The Dal Fiatach and the Dal Riada are traced from the older line of Heremon, and if indeed this is true we would expect to see similar Y-DNA in both group's. Our ancestor ''Anradhan'' is reported to have lived ca. 11thc. Recorded in the Annals for 1100 is the death of Aisidh Ua Amhradhain, Tigherna of Dal Fiatach. I believe Anradhan would be a simple contraction of Amhradhain, Prince of the Dal Fiatach. In 1094 Donnsleibhe Ua Eochadha, King of Ulidia, was slain by Domhnall MacLochlainn King of Aileach. In 1015 a battle occurred between the Ulidians and the Dal-Araidhe, the Dal-Araidhe were defeated by Niall, son of Eochaidh. This identifies Niall as being of the Dal Fiatach. Further in 1062 Niall, son of Eochaidh, King of Ulidia, and his son, Eochaidh, royal heir of the province die on Thursday, the Ides? of September. Given that the MacDonalds mention that the McLea family were in Lorne 300 years before them, I believe this would suggest that St Moluag, who was from Bangor in Ulidia, was the founder of a Kindred which was augumented by their royal cousin Aisidh Ua Amhradhain, Prince of Dal Fiatach. I also find an early record of the personal name Suibhne in the Annals in 592 where he is described as the King of Ulidia, his son was named Aedh Dubh

[Bachuil]

Grant, We have to be careful of a circular argument here. Very much not an expert in this field, Rob or Andrew will have a better idea, .... BUT I think that the Colla signature is based on ours - and extrapolated back. Regards, Niall

[Bachuil]

Grant, Trying to get my head around your posting. I am fairly confident that Moluag descends from Fiacha Araidhe the founder of the D

[Andrew Lancaster4]

Yes, your Lismore Livingstone haplotype was certainly a part of the data that led to the Colla signature conclusions. I think it might be considered one of the most important ones. So your comment is justified. On the other hand, while I am not a party to all of the data which was felt to be relevent I know that other clans were included. Of course in all cases, the most ancient ancestry of particular clan members as well as clans in general is always something which can be discussed. By ancient let's say before the Middle Ages perhaps, or before the unification of Picts and Gaels in Scotland. The Somerled signature is easier to determine both because it is a more unusual haplotype and also because Somerled's descendents are reasonably well recorded in history. I tend to refer to the Colla signature as Dalriadic, because to me the evidence points to a general regional background rather than any particular family at this time. It is also interesting to note that I have not yet heard much about comparisons to Irish clans in drawing the Colla conclusions, although this was also intended. Regards Andrew

[Grant South1]

Sorry for not being so clear. I think it's probable that Amhradhain of Ulidia, was Scoto-Pict. His tribe was Dal Fiatach and well followed patrilineal succession. But their neighbours were Scoto-Picts and succession may have been both patrilineal and also matrilineal. This view is based on some of the citations in the Annals. We know that as early as the 3rd century AD there was contact between the courts of Ulster and Alba- Gaels and Picts. The mother of the Three Collas was the daughter of the High King of Alba and when the brother's were banished they travelled with 300 adherents to the court of their maternal grandfather in Alba. So the Clan Colla in Scotland began as a Royal Scoto-Pict line. 1. The genealogy of the Ui Eathach a branch of the Dal Araide records a descent from Ir 5th son of Miled Espaine [Gallic]. This is a historical declaration that the Dal Araide although known as Cruithne were to some degree a Gael-Pict admixture. The Dal Fiatach descend from the race of Ir, brother of Heremon and so all three are collateral branches of descent from the two brothers Ir and Heremon. [Y-DNA] Clan Colla is also from the line of Heremon 2. Further cited as one of the legendary Chiefs of Dal Araide was Queen Macha. I take this as evidence of a degree of matrilineal succession within the derbfine of the Dal Araide, the same practice as our later Scoto-Picts in Alba. 3. The Cruithne are recorded as the early owners of Ulidia and so I take that to mean the Gaels came in as a military/cultural elite. Through long association from the 6th century when the Dal Fiatach established themselves in east Ulidia to the time of the 11thc of our Donnsliebe Ua Eochada, I believe the Dal Fiatach may well have also become a Scoto-Pict admixture. My reading of this is that St Molaug of the Dal Araide was a Scoto-Pict of high degree. Slainte!

[Grant South1]

I have made a mistake in my last posting. In point 1. where I write the Dal Fiatach descend from the race of Ir, I meant to say from Heremon, brother of Ir, etc. The Dal Riata of Antrim were taken over in 741 by the Cruithne [Dal Araide] and the Vikings had taken possession of the Dal Riadic lands in Antrim by the mid-9th century. Further the King of Aileach captured Dunseverick the royal capital of Dal Riata by 879AD. Some of the Dal Riata fled to Pictavia and there was a merging alliance of the remaining group with the Dal Fiatach. The cultural borders were in a state of flux from the mid-8th century. In 1176 the Annals record that Cu Muighe O'Flionn,