Hi Roberta
WOW! What an amount of work you are putting into producing these lists. I was furtunate to spot one of my ancestors on your lists. I just wish I could find out more about the parents but, for the moment, that is my brick wall. Thank you very much for all your hard work.
Kind regards
Margaret
Kilbrandon and Kilchattan, Argyll
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Margaret Stewart
- Posts: 40
- Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 11:36 pm
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Roberta Ann
- Posts: 602
- Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2009 12:56 pm
Re: Kilbrandon and Kilchattan, Argyll
Hi Margaret;
Thank you for your comments. Can I help you to get beyond your brick wall, Margaret? Let me know. I am a quick reader and a multi-tasker. I also have lots of time, time of which others of our members might not have. I am happy to do this. Sorry for the bad syntax. One of our matches lists Perthshire as her earliest know ancestor. My reason for going to the Perthshire area. I will be going back to Argyll next.
Regards;
Roberta
Thank you for your comments. Can I help you to get beyond your brick wall, Margaret? Let me know. I am a quick reader and a multi-tasker. I also have lots of time, time of which others of our members might not have. I am happy to do this. Sorry for the bad syntax. One of our matches lists Perthshire as her earliest know ancestor. My reason for going to the Perthshire area. I will be going back to Argyll next.
Regards;
Roberta
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Margaret Stewart
- Posts: 40
- Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 11:36 pm
Re: Kilbrandon and Kilchattan, Argyll
Hi Roberta
Thank you very much for your kind offer. Make yourself comfortable while I tell you my story!
My earliest known ancestors are Duncan Livingston and Effy McInnish, parents of Mary born 29 July 1805 as shown on your list. On the 1841 census the parents (both aged 50) are still in Balvicar Village with two of their sons, Archibald and Duncan, (both aged 20) and with their daughter Mary, husband Archibald McIntyre (both aged 30) and grand-daughter Euphemia. At the bottom of the list is Barbra Livingston aged 40. I have had some correspondence with a distant cousin who has traced Barbra through the records and found she died aged 80 in 1879 and her parents were shown as Donald Livingston and Sarah Clerk or Clark who married 15 January 1791 at Kilninver and Kilmelford. It is possible/likely that Barbra was a sister of Duncan but we can't be sure. She was shown on the Poor Relief records as being 59 in 1852. The ages on the 1841 census have been rounded down so much as to be unhelpful to say the least.
Duncan and Effy are not shown on the 1851 although their daughter Mary is still staying in the same house at Balvicar so he/they may have died or moved elsewhere. The statutory records only start as you know in 1855 so my only hope is to have a look at the Kirk Session records and 1861 censuses for surrounding districts. I think I'm grasping at straws suggesting they may have moved elsewhere.
Last Monday I went through to Edinburgh to have a look at whatever records they have for Kilbrandon and Kilchattan but unfortunately forgot to take passport identification with me so couldn't get in. (The day wasn't wasted though because I went into Register House and tracked down some of my husband's Stewart ancestors.) I'll go again though and hope to find something of interest in the church records.
The other small thing that makes me question if Donald and Sarah are the parents of Duncan is that the naming pattern of Duncan and Effy's family is slightly off. Their first son is John, second son is Donald. According to the Scottish naming pattern that would mean Duncan's father would have been John and Effy's father would have been Donald. I know I'm being a bit pedantic but up till now I have always tried to have confirmation from two different sources. I have trawled all the graveyards in the area but have been unsuccessful in finding a gravestone.
So the quest continues. If you come across them anywhere on your trawls through the records I'd be delighted.
Thanks again.
Kind regards
Margaret
Thank you very much for your kind offer. Make yourself comfortable while I tell you my story!
My earliest known ancestors are Duncan Livingston and Effy McInnish, parents of Mary born 29 July 1805 as shown on your list. On the 1841 census the parents (both aged 50) are still in Balvicar Village with two of their sons, Archibald and Duncan, (both aged 20) and with their daughter Mary, husband Archibald McIntyre (both aged 30) and grand-daughter Euphemia. At the bottom of the list is Barbra Livingston aged 40. I have had some correspondence with a distant cousin who has traced Barbra through the records and found she died aged 80 in 1879 and her parents were shown as Donald Livingston and Sarah Clerk or Clark who married 15 January 1791 at Kilninver and Kilmelford. It is possible/likely that Barbra was a sister of Duncan but we can't be sure. She was shown on the Poor Relief records as being 59 in 1852. The ages on the 1841 census have been rounded down so much as to be unhelpful to say the least.
Duncan and Effy are not shown on the 1851 although their daughter Mary is still staying in the same house at Balvicar so he/they may have died or moved elsewhere. The statutory records only start as you know in 1855 so my only hope is to have a look at the Kirk Session records and 1861 censuses for surrounding districts. I think I'm grasping at straws suggesting they may have moved elsewhere.
Last Monday I went through to Edinburgh to have a look at whatever records they have for Kilbrandon and Kilchattan but unfortunately forgot to take passport identification with me so couldn't get in. (The day wasn't wasted though because I went into Register House and tracked down some of my husband's Stewart ancestors.) I'll go again though and hope to find something of interest in the church records.
The other small thing that makes me question if Donald and Sarah are the parents of Duncan is that the naming pattern of Duncan and Effy's family is slightly off. Their first son is John, second son is Donald. According to the Scottish naming pattern that would mean Duncan's father would have been John and Effy's father would have been Donald. I know I'm being a bit pedantic but up till now I have always tried to have confirmation from two different sources. I have trawled all the graveyards in the area but have been unsuccessful in finding a gravestone.
So the quest continues. If you come across them anywhere on your trawls through the records I'd be delighted.
Thanks again.
Kind regards
Margaret
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Canadian Livingstone
- Posts: 2780
- Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm
Re: Kilbrandon and Kilchattan, Argyll
HI Margaret,
It is a mystery what happened to your ancestors Duncan and Euphemia Livingston born abt. 1791 or thereabouts after the 1841 Census. As you state they could not be located in the 1851 Scottish census at Balivicar, Kilbrandon and Kilchattan nor could I locate their son Duncan born abt. 1821. Perhaps they left for the colonies or died. Cant say. All that I know is that the their son Archibald born abt. 1821 became a tailor at Balivicar, Kilbrandon and Kilchattan and was born in Kilbrandon according to the 1851 census and residing at No. 6 ? in Balivicar with wife Margaret age 32, Euphemia age 2 and Agnes 4 months. In the 1861 Census Archibald still a tailor and Margaret both recorded as age 40 are residing at No. 14? in Balivicar with children Euphemia age 12, Agnes age 10, Duncan age 8, Margaret age 5, Mary age 3 and Alexander age 4 months. This family also seems to disappear from Balivicar and Kilbrandon and Kilchattan after the 1861 Census. Perhaps they left Scotland. Was Archibald the tailor of Balivicar your great-great Uncle?
regards,
Donald
It is a mystery what happened to your ancestors Duncan and Euphemia Livingston born abt. 1791 or thereabouts after the 1841 Census. As you state they could not be located in the 1851 Scottish census at Balivicar, Kilbrandon and Kilchattan nor could I locate their son Duncan born abt. 1821. Perhaps they left for the colonies or died. Cant say. All that I know is that the their son Archibald born abt. 1821 became a tailor at Balivicar, Kilbrandon and Kilchattan and was born in Kilbrandon according to the 1851 census and residing at No. 6 ? in Balivicar with wife Margaret age 32, Euphemia age 2 and Agnes 4 months. In the 1861 Census Archibald still a tailor and Margaret both recorded as age 40 are residing at No. 14? in Balivicar with children Euphemia age 12, Agnes age 10, Duncan age 8, Margaret age 5, Mary age 3 and Alexander age 4 months. This family also seems to disappear from Balivicar and Kilbrandon and Kilchattan after the 1861 Census. Perhaps they left Scotland. Was Archibald the tailor of Balivicar your great-great Uncle?
regards,
Donald
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Canadian Livingstone
- Posts: 2780
- Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm
Re: Kilbrandon and Kilchattan, Argyll
HI Margaret,
Regarding your ancestor Mary born 1805 - are you saying that the Duncan Livingston and Euphemia Livingston age 50 at Balivicar, Kilbrandon and Kilchattan are her parents? If I understand correctly they would only be abt 15 at time of Mary's birth and if they were parents of Mary McIntrye listed in residence with them in the 1841 census age 30 then she would have been born about 1810 at which time Duncan and Ephemia Livingston were about 20. Do I have this right? Regarding the 1861 Census the only Mary McIntyre that I could find that comes close to any these Mary Livington's would be a Mary McIntyre born abt. 1805 in Argyll a domestic servantthat is living with a Mrs Taylor at Tofts House in Mearns Parish, Renfrewshire in lowland Scotland 1861 Census. May not be the correct Mary McIntyre however you are looking for.
regards,
Donald
Regarding your ancestor Mary born 1805 - are you saying that the Duncan Livingston and Euphemia Livingston age 50 at Balivicar, Kilbrandon and Kilchattan are her parents? If I understand correctly they would only be abt 15 at time of Mary's birth and if they were parents of Mary McIntrye listed in residence with them in the 1841 census age 30 then she would have been born about 1810 at which time Duncan and Ephemia Livingston were about 20. Do I have this right? Regarding the 1861 Census the only Mary McIntyre that I could find that comes close to any these Mary Livington's would be a Mary McIntyre born abt. 1805 in Argyll a domestic servantthat is living with a Mrs Taylor at Tofts House in Mearns Parish, Renfrewshire in lowland Scotland 1861 Census. May not be the correct Mary McIntyre however you are looking for.
regards,
Donald
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Canadian Livingstone
- Posts: 2780
- Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm
Re: Kilbrandon and Kilchattan, Argyll
Hi Margaret,
Regarding Donald and Sarah Livingston of Kilninver there is Sarah Livingston pauper born 1771 age 70 in the 1841 Census with son John age 45 at Kilninver. Also a Sarah Livingston pauper born 1771 age 70 at Kibrandon and Kilchattan at Colipole living with Mary age 40 and Margaret age 30 if that is any help to you. Odd they are same age. Whether this was Sarah Clark or Sarah Clerk that was married to a Donald Livingston before 1800 I dont know but one of them could be Donald's widow.
regards,
Donald
Regarding Donald and Sarah Livingston of Kilninver there is Sarah Livingston pauper born 1771 age 70 in the 1841 Census with son John age 45 at Kilninver. Also a Sarah Livingston pauper born 1771 age 70 at Kibrandon and Kilchattan at Colipole living with Mary age 40 and Margaret age 30 if that is any help to you. Odd they are same age. Whether this was Sarah Clark or Sarah Clerk that was married to a Donald Livingston before 1800 I dont know but one of them could be Donald's widow.
regards,
Donald
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Margaret Stewart
- Posts: 40
- Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 11:36 pm
Re: Kilbrandon and Kilchattan, Argyll
Hi Duncan
With regard to Duncan, son of Duncan and Effy, he moved to Glasgow sometime before 1859 (the date of his marriage to Christina Leitch and remained there until his death in 1881. I have traced the rest of the family through several generations. There are a few gaps which I mean to investigate (sometime) because I suspect they may have gone abroad as I could find no trace of them in Scotland.
It is the discrepancy in the age of Duncan at the time of his daughter's birth which makes me think the census ages have been rounded down so much. I believe the rules of the census were that ages had to be rounded down to the nearest 5. If Duncan was in fact 54 at the time of the census, therefore being born in 1787, it would make him 18 at the time of Mary's birth. However in the 1800s it was legal in Scotland for boys aged 14 and girls aged 12 to marry so this takes me back to my original dilemma. I cannot find trace of Duncan being born to Donald L and Sarah Clerk but then these two names were taken from Barbra's death certificate which may or may not be correct.
Unfortunately the proliferation of Duncan, Donald, John, Mary etc in the Livingstons and in Argyll doesn't make it any easier to sort them out. I'll follow up the Sarah who died in Culipool to find if she was previously Sarah Clerk and see where that leads me.
Thank you for your input. Its good to have others look at your "brick wall" and maybe suggest another source to try.
Kind regards
Margaret
With regard to Duncan, son of Duncan and Effy, he moved to Glasgow sometime before 1859 (the date of his marriage to Christina Leitch and remained there until his death in 1881. I have traced the rest of the family through several generations. There are a few gaps which I mean to investigate (sometime) because I suspect they may have gone abroad as I could find no trace of them in Scotland.
It is the discrepancy in the age of Duncan at the time of his daughter's birth which makes me think the census ages have been rounded down so much. I believe the rules of the census were that ages had to be rounded down to the nearest 5. If Duncan was in fact 54 at the time of the census, therefore being born in 1787, it would make him 18 at the time of Mary's birth. However in the 1800s it was legal in Scotland for boys aged 14 and girls aged 12 to marry so this takes me back to my original dilemma. I cannot find trace of Duncan being born to Donald L and Sarah Clerk but then these two names were taken from Barbra's death certificate which may or may not be correct.
Unfortunately the proliferation of Duncan, Donald, John, Mary etc in the Livingstons and in Argyll doesn't make it any easier to sort them out. I'll follow up the Sarah who died in Culipool to find if she was previously Sarah Clerk and see where that leads me.
Thank you for your input. Its good to have others look at your "brick wall" and maybe suggest another source to try.
Kind regards
Margaret
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Canadian Livingstone
- Posts: 2780
- Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm
Re: Kilbrandon and Kilchattan, Argyll
HI Margaret,
We certainly will do everything we can to assist in your efforts to sort out your Livingston family mystery. Roberta and I have access to Scottish records and between the two of us we will keep an eye out for any records that may help shed some light on the problem. We got very luck with Ginger's Ballachulish Livingston family research but other families such as yours represent a more formidable challenge. To be honest this one does not look promising but we shall see what if anything else we can find out. Sounds like you have done quite a bit yourself. At this stage I guess I am in the process of familiarizing myself with your fine work so far and seeing if there any thing I can suggest to help you. I must confess we have had alot of luck of lately finding Livingston ancestors. Every once and while we get requests for help and we try to do what we can.
regards,
Donald
We certainly will do everything we can to assist in your efforts to sort out your Livingston family mystery. Roberta and I have access to Scottish records and between the two of us we will keep an eye out for any records that may help shed some light on the problem. We got very luck with Ginger's Ballachulish Livingston family research but other families such as yours represent a more formidable challenge. To be honest this one does not look promising but we shall see what if anything else we can find out. Sounds like you have done quite a bit yourself. At this stage I guess I am in the process of familiarizing myself with your fine work so far and seeing if there any thing I can suggest to help you. I must confess we have had alot of luck of lately finding Livingston ancestors. Every once and while we get requests for help and we try to do what we can.
regards,
Donald
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Margaret Stewart
- Posts: 40
- Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 11:36 pm
Re: Kilbrandon and Kilchattan, Argyll
Hi Donald
Sorry, I've just realised I called you Duncan. I seem to have Duncans on the brain (my father was Duncan too!). I've also realised I didn't answer your question about Archibald.
So far as I know Archibald remained in Balvicar at least until 1869 when his wife died. Like you I couldn't find him in the 1871 census but in 1881 he is living with his son Duncan at 24 Kilbrandon. I would need to look at the original census records to see which part of Kilbrandon parish that was. Incidentally his age is given as 58 which would have made him 18 in 1841 not 20! He died in 1911 In Easdale aged 91 so was the 1841 age correct after all? Wouldn't mind knocking a couple of years off my age!
Margaret
Sorry, I've just realised I called you Duncan. I seem to have Duncans on the brain (my father was Duncan too!). I've also realised I didn't answer your question about Archibald.
So far as I know Archibald remained in Balvicar at least until 1869 when his wife died. Like you I couldn't find him in the 1871 census but in 1881 he is living with his son Duncan at 24 Kilbrandon. I would need to look at the original census records to see which part of Kilbrandon parish that was. Incidentally his age is given as 58 which would have made him 18 in 1841 not 20! He died in 1911 In Easdale aged 91 so was the 1841 age correct after all? Wouldn't mind knocking a couple of years off my age!
Margaret
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mikewatson
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:55 am
- Location: Calice Ligure (SV), Italy
Re: Kilbrandon and Kilchattan, Argyll
Hi Jill,
I read with great interest your account of how Mary Livingston, daughter of Archibald Livingston and Mary McDougall, was your gt. gt. gt. aunt. I have traced my family back to Donald Livinston, son of the same Archibald Livingston and Mary McDougall. Donald was my gt. gt. grandfather, so your gt. gt. gt. aunt Mary is also my gt. gt. gt. aunt. How about that!
Do you have any further information about Archibald Livingston: his date of birth, his parents, his siblings, etc. Also, interesting that you think that the gt. gt. gt. grandparents didn't come from the area of Kilbrandon and Killchattan, do you have any idea where they did come from?
Best regards,
Mike Watson
[/quote]Hi Roberta, You are doing a tremendous job putting up all these lists for us to look through and I, for one, am very grateful. Thank you. In your list of births and christenings, Kilbrandon and Kilchattan, you list Mary c. Aug 17 1785, daughter of Archibald Livingston and Mary McDougall. Mary was born around 1782 and is my gt. gt. gt. aunt and, of course, her parents are my gt. gt. gt. grandparents. The family moved on to Craignish and Mary was married from Corranmor, Craignish on 19th March 1805 to Malcolm McInnes from Kilmartin. Mary lived out her life in Kilmartin and died at Carnassarie, Kilmartin on 12th June 1870, aged 88. I just thought you might be interested to see some info about some of the people on your lists. Incidentally, reading through your lists of marriages for Kilbrandon and Killchattan has confirmed something I have long suspected: that my gt.gt.gt. grandparents did not come originally from that area.
Regards,
Jill[/quote]
I read with great interest your account of how Mary Livingston, daughter of Archibald Livingston and Mary McDougall, was your gt. gt. gt. aunt. I have traced my family back to Donald Livinston, son of the same Archibald Livingston and Mary McDougall. Donald was my gt. gt. grandfather, so your gt. gt. gt. aunt Mary is also my gt. gt. gt. aunt. How about that!
Do you have any further information about Archibald Livingston: his date of birth, his parents, his siblings, etc. Also, interesting that you think that the gt. gt. gt. grandparents didn't come from the area of Kilbrandon and Killchattan, do you have any idea where they did come from?
Best regards,
Mike Watson
[/quote]Hi Roberta, You are doing a tremendous job putting up all these lists for us to look through and I, for one, am very grateful. Thank you. In your list of births and christenings, Kilbrandon and Kilchattan, you list Mary c. Aug 17 1785, daughter of Archibald Livingston and Mary McDougall. Mary was born around 1782 and is my gt. gt. gt. aunt and, of course, her parents are my gt. gt. gt. grandparents. The family moved on to Craignish and Mary was married from Corranmor, Craignish on 19th March 1805 to Malcolm McInnes from Kilmartin. Mary lived out her life in Kilmartin and died at Carnassarie, Kilmartin on 12th June 1870, aged 88. I just thought you might be interested to see some info about some of the people on your lists. Incidentally, reading through your lists of marriages for Kilbrandon and Killchattan has confirmed something I have long suspected: that my gt.gt.gt. grandparents did not come originally from that area.
Regards,
Jill[/quote]