John McVicar, Red River Settlement

[CallieK]

I was searching for John McVicar and followed a link here to a post in the Old Archives that mentioned a John McVicar, carpenter, who traveled from Scotland with one of the Red River groups. I confess I am a terrible Canadian and know very little about that area of history and I would great appreciate if anyone has any more information or can tell me where to search for any available records.

The original thread was I believe Miles Livingstone and the poster was Donald Livingstone Clink

thanks!

[Kyle MacLea]

Welcome to the Forum! We have a couple of members with an interest in the Red River Settlement, so I'm sure they can help.

Again, thanks for joining!

Kyle=

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Calliek,

Welcome to the Clan Maclea Livingstone Forum. Yes that post you are quoting was likely mine and I was probably talking about my great-great-great grandfather Miles Livingston b. abt. 1775 a native of the Morvern Parish in western Argyllshire, a boatbuilder and barrel maker on the Isle of Islay who was recruited by one of Lord Selkirks highland agents and in June of 1812 was married in Bowmore Parish by the Presbyterian minister there to his wife Janet nickname Jessie Livingston. A few days later he left for the Red River Settlement. With Miles were several from Islay, a Currie, Lamont, McVicar and probably a few others, also a number of McLeans and others from Mull. I have somewhere the list of those settlers who sailed aboard the Hudsons Bay Company vessel The Robert Taylor to the Hudsons Bay Post and then from there traveled 700 miles or so south by canoe and small boat to Selkirks Red River Settlement. I am pretty certain John McVicar arrived with the rest of the Islay group in the fall of 1812. Are you a descendant of a McVicar who was at the Selkirk Settlement?

regards,

Donald

[CallieK]

Well I am a descendant of a John McVicar but whether he's the same John McVicar is what I'm trying to find out. I will start with what I know for certain and perhaps you can help me sort out whether I'm on the right track

My 3 x great grandfather was Archibald McVicar b May 11 1814, eldest child of John McVicar and Katharine Adair. Until yesterday I believed Arch was born in Bowmore, Kilarrow Parish (via other trusted researchers and confirmed by a transcription of baptism from Argyle Scotland Parish records). I had never actually seen the original record so I was somewhat excited to find it on Scotlands People and it tells a whole different story.

Arch'd Son to John McViccar from Hudson Bay North America and Katharine Adair his spouse, being born 11th may 1814, being baptized there ...May 13th
Rob't Full brother to the above being born 1st March 1816, having been baptized the 3rd of same month.
John Full brother to both the preceding was born 12th Aug 1818 having been baptized the 18th of the same month

This was entered on Nov 27 1818 in the parish records of the above and is the date transcribed in every other source including the one I had as proof of birth.

That's where I started from last evening- a google search for John McVicar Hudson's Bay led me here. Can you give me anymore info on John McVicar from the Selkirk settlement? What are the sources you've been writing about and are they searchable?

thanks so much!

[CallieK]

More info that may shed some light on my theory:

I have Arch McVicar on every Canadian census from 1842 till 1891 (he died in 1897) In two of the census his birthplace is given as Canada (1842,1852,) 2 have him born in Scotland (1861, 1891) and 2 has his birthplace as Manitoba (1871,1881). His brother Robert has similar records - In the 1861 census Robert's birthplace was transcribed by Ancestry as Sandson Bay but it is clearly Hudson Bay on the original. In 1871 it's Canada and in 1881 he's listed as born in Scotland.

John McVicar reappears in Canada in 1852, living with Arch. He is recorded as being born in Scotland and worked as a carpenter (which also lines up with what I read in your posts). I've found nothing further for him and have no idea when or where he died. Nor do I have a death for Katharine Adair, not even sure she came back to Canada although quite a few of their children did.

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Calliek,
A John McVicar carpenter and his wife (name not given) were with ancestor Miles Livingston b. 1775 with the first group of settlers to Red River Colony according an 1812 list included in the surviving collection of Lord Selkirks papers. That would be the first docuemnt pertaining to a John McVicar who was known to be a Red River settler. This would definitely be the original John McVicar from the Island of Islay that were with the Livingstons with other settlers from Islay and Mull Argyllshire as well as Ireland that met with Lord Selkirk in Sligo Ireland and then boarded the Hudsons Bay vessel Robert Taylor at the port of Sligo. The Islay and Mull highlanders has travelled aboard the schooner Staffa to Sligo Ireland and board the Robert Taylor in Ireland which was to head to a Hudsons Bay Port and from there the settlers had to endure an over 800 mile journey south by small boat anad canoe.

I have to locate some other original document info I have from the Red River settlement but first document listing a John McVicar carpenter that travelled on the same sailing ship as my ancestor Miles Livingston is from the Selkirk Papers Volume 2 pgs. 560-562 which is a list recorded by Owen Kenevy who was in charge of the settler aboard the Robert Taylor, of those who arrived at the Hudson Bay Post York Factory by September of 1812. This list was reproduced I think in a George Bryce book on the Selkirk settllemtn published more than a hundred years agoincluded this Owen Kenevy List of the Robert Taylor Selrkirk Settlers who arived at York Factory on Hudsons Bay, in then Hudsons Bay Territory, British North America and is of course the Selkirk Papers are also located in the National Archives in Ottawa and I think the Manitoba Archives also has a copy of the Selkirk Papers.

John McVicar the carpenter apparently was an old friend from the Island Islay of Donald Livingston Red River colony boatbuilder and his family back on Islay and at the time of the first Red River Colony troubles with the North West Company in the June of 1815 they were living together with Donald and his wife Ann McGilverary and family. John McVicar is listed in a list of Red River Settlers from 1811 to 1815 still being in the settlement after the 1815 settlement attack when many left the settlement for Upper Canada. And an 1816 list indicates that John McVicar is still there. These lists only one John McVicar at this time as employed by Lord Selkirk. I dont know if he had sons. What is interesting and someone may have already told you this is that in correspondence between Donald Livingston and his father Neil in Scotland circa August 1818 he indicates that John McVicar is returning to Scotland. And a letter from Donald's father Neil Livingston to Lord Selkirk in 1819 refers to JOhn McVicar of Bowmore, Islay. Another letter written by a Duncan Livingstone in 1819 who was another son of Neil Livingston and brother of Donald who wishes to come to the Red River Colony mentions that he knew John McVicar since an early age.

What does this mean. Did John McVicar remain at Islay or did he return? I dont know. It would seem to me there is one John McVicar the Livingstones are refering to here but perhaps he returned to the settlement. I also was wondering if Lord Selkirk sent him back to Islay as a recruiter of settlers for the settlement. I dont that to be the case and I dont have any info that his same John McVicar returned to Red River but it is possible. Someone from the Lord Selkirk Society might have information if this John McVicar one of the original settlement carpenters who apparently left in 1818 ever returned to the settlement. if this John McVicar did return to the Red River Settlement he would be a very old man by 1871 or 1881. Remember he would have been at least in this twenties and married in 1812 when he first arrived at red river colony.

regards,
Donald




regards,
Donald

[CallieK]

Thank you for looking into this for me!

What I have been able to piece together so far is that John McVicar and Katherine Adair (who I believe to be originally from Argyll) were somewhere in Hudson Bay territory long enough to have 3 sons born there (1814, 1816 and 1818). (I have still not located a marriage for them however, wonder if they married on the ship on the way there?) By Nov of 1818 they had returned to Scotland and had the baptisms of those three son registered in the local parish(see image in the above post). This fits with your comment in the Miles Livingstone thread:

"In one of the family letters from 1818 that Donald [Livingstone] wrote to his father Neil he urged him to come out to Red River and mentions that he is also writing Malcolm and Donald Livingstone. Two Bowmore residents Archibald Curry and John McVicar who had been at Red RIver, Donald mentions to his father are returning to Bowmore and will be in touch with Neil. In a subsequent Livingstone family letter in 1819, John McVicar's address is given as Bowmore. "

John and Katharine went on to have at least 4 more children (3 daughters and another son) all baptized at Bowmore, the last one in 1825. At some point, John and the three eldest sons Archibald, Robert and John Jr returned to Canada but ended up in Quebec (Lower Canada). The earliest record I have back in Canada is for Arch's marriage in 1838 in St Andrew's, LC. I have John Jr's marriage in 1840 (Montreal), can't find Roberts but he was married in the same area and had a daughter baptized at St Andrews in 1849 before moving to Vermont. John Sr, as mentioned, shows up living with Arch on the 1852 census in Deux Mountains, LC but that's the only record I have found for him. The 1871 and 1881 census records I mentioned in the earlier post are for Archibald. There are a couple ships list records from Quebec to Montreal between 1825- 1835 that could possibly be them but I need to have a closer look. I don't have a death for either John Sr or Katharine so I don't know where they ended up.

I read through the entire Miles Livingstone thread and gleaned quite bit of useful info on the sources you and others mentioned. From those notes I was able to find a copy of The Red River Settlement Papers compiled by Chester Martin in 1910
http://archive.org/stream/redriversettl ... 3/mode/2up
John McVicar, carpenter (and wife) are on the list you mention.

I searched the HBC archives with no luck, however I found this record listed in the Archives of Manitoba

Item Description Depositions of James Bird, Peter Fidler (with map), Michael Hayden, Donald Livingston, Alexander Macdonell, John Richards McKay, John Macleod, Moustouche and Joseph Peltier, Alexander Murray, Pierre Chrysologue Pambrun, Joseph Peltier [Pelletier], Pierre Lemaire St. Germain, Joseph Sansfaçon, and William Smith, relating to disturbances between the Hudson's Bay Company and the North West Company

Which coincides with something else you wrote in the Mile Livingstone thread so I have sent for this microfilm.

...1817 deposition of Donald Livingston he mentions being with John McVicar at the time of the Colony disturbances in 1815 by Donald Cameron and the North West Company. John McVicar a carpenter from the Isle of Islay was also mentioned in the correspondence in….

I also located several references to John McVicar in the Selkirk files of the LAC holdings, including this one
Name: McVicar, John
Year of Immigration: 1815
Additional Information: "John Vicar: 3 persons of all ages and sexes"
Document Title: Journal of Peter Fidler, 28 June 1815. "Remnant of the colonists which remain with us"
Fonds Title: Thomas Douglas, 5th Earl of Selkirk

However, the LAC no longer loans microfilms so I have written to the Manitoba archives to see if they also have copies of these and if they don't I guess I'll be making a trip to Ottawa!

If you have any other sources which mention John McVicar to suggest or any records close at hand that you can easily copy, I'd greatly appreciate it. Your info has been very invaluable so far, thank you so much!

Heather

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Calliek,

1815 is probably a transcription error somewhere along the line. John McVicar definitely arrived at the Red River Colony with his wife in October of 1812. They are definitely included on the list of those Red River Settlers who arrived at York Factory on Hudson Bay by end of August 1812. John McVicar carpenter and his wife like my great-great-great grandfather Miles Livingston b. abt. 1775 and his wife Janet (Jessie) Livingston were among several settlers who had resided on the Island of Islay, though my ancestor was not born there.
Both my ancestor Miles Livingston and the elder Donald Livingston b. abt. 1786 or 1791 were both skilled boat builders. Miles 1812 marriage record from the Bowmore Presbyterian parish book indicates that he was born in Morvern and that makes sense given that the name Miles or Myles is name specific to the Livingston and McInnis families in Morvern and neighbouring Lismore Parish in western Argyllshire and also Donald Livingston boatbuilder also states in his 1817 deposition that he was also born in Morvern Parish though he and his family had resided on Islay. The Red River Colony records states that Miles Livingston was from Mull but actually he travelled to the settlement aboard the Robert Taylor with highland settlers who from were both from Mull and Islay in highland Argyllshire so there was easily some confusion of where he in fact originated.

I noticed that one of the Red RIver lists mentioned that Hector McEachern also I believe from Islay and aboard the Robert Taylor in the summer of 1812 was a brother in law of John McVicar. But that could mean that Hector had married a sister of John McVicar. I also know that Donald Livingstone and his family were acquainted with John McVicar back on the Island of Islay and that Donald stated that at the time when Duncan Cameron of the Northwest Company was trying to break up Lord Selkirks Settlement in 1815 that Donald stated that John McVicar was living with him and his family at the Colony. No doubt John McVicar helped to build some of the original housing for the settlers upon their arrival and later in Sept of 1814 when the lumber arrived for Miles Livingston's house it is likely that John McVicar was involved in the construction as the original settlement carpenter.

No I'm sorry to say that the only info I had on JOhn McVicar carpenter, one of the original settlers from 1812 is what I have mentioned and the only reason I had that was that he travelled with my Livingstons aboard the Robert Taylor and he is interestingly enough known to the Red River Livingstons back from when they resided on the Island of Islay. I dont know where John McVicar was living on Islay in 1812 but when he returned in 1818 according to Livingstons he was at Bowmore.

Glad the Miles Livingston Red River settlement info here at the Forum was of some help in researching you ancestor John McVicar. Yes it is unfortunate that is such a hazzle to get access to the Selkirk Papers. THere is alot of interesting info to be found no doubt in that collection for anyone whose ancestor was a part of that settlement. You should also check with the Manitoba Archives people and see what they suggest. And of course there is the Selkirk Society.

I should tell you that your John McVicar and the rest of the settlers on the Hudsons Bay Company vessel "Robert Taylor" almost perished in the frigid waters on their way to Hudsons Bay as the plating on the bottom of the ship was damaged by ice, but fortunately they managed to keep the ship afloat and it arrived at York Factory safely. The highlanders and the Irish aboard the ship were no doubt fascinated by the massive icebergs and eskimos both of which they had never seen before.

Sorry I mentioned George Bryce who wrote a couple of books related to the Red River Colony in the early 1900's but you are quite right that CHester Martin published some letters and lists of settlers extracted from the Selkirk Papers in 1910. I also found that list in that book I know realize. As you have discovered its only a few pages and the only Red River Colony settler list pertaining to John McVicar in the Martin book is included with a letter that was written to Lord Selkirk in Sept of 1812 from York Factory, in then Hudsons Bay Company Territory. That is the earliest reference to your John McVicar carpenter that I have discovered. There may be a marriage entry for them in the Kilarrow Parish Bowmore parish records or elsewhere on Islay in the early 1800's prior to John and wife's departure to the Red River Colony with the Livingstons and other Islay folk.

You should be aware that there were a number of Census records done in the early years of the Red RIver settlement and there may be some McVicars that show up there. I was also under the impression that there was a son Robert and a son John but if so they were born after the 1812 arrival and I dont know anything about them. The story regarding this John McVicar carpenter and his wife after they returned to the Isle of Islay, Scotland about 1818 is not known to me except that some Livingston correspondence indicates that John McVicar returned to Islay and was by 1819 residing in Bowmore, (Kilarrow Parish), Islay. As you noted your own research confirms that John and his wife returned to Islay and additional family were born there. A lot of Islay folk were encouraged to settle in Upper Canada in the 1830's as well, but it is mystery to me when your McVicars ended up back in British North America, but you may be able figure this out in general sense from land records and census records.

regards,

Donald

[CallieK]

HI Donald,

It seems that you have a wealth of knowledge of the Red River Settlement! I am slowly reading through the sources I've found thanks to you and am anxiously awaiting more. I hope you won't mind if I lean on you for more resources and clarification.

I noticed that one of the Red RIver lists mentioned that Hector McEachern also I believe from Islay and aboard the Robert Taylor in the summer of 1812 was a brother in law of John McVicar. But that could mean that Hector had married a sister of John McVicar.

This is all very interesting- can you tell me the source for this information? I haven't come across this list- nothing in Chester Martin's book has those details (but even he suggests that his notes are not complete.) The relationship between John McVicar and Hector McEachern is curious, but I do have a thought- I believe John McVicar's parents were Archibald McVicar and Margaret McEachern (of Bowmore). I know that sometimes the term brother-in-law was not as we use it today but a term for a step or half brother. I did do a quick search for possible marriages for Hector and found nothing on FS or SP that suggests he married a McVicar girl. I'd love to find something that clarifies this.

No I'm sorry to say that the only info I had on JOhn McVicar carpenter, one of the original settlers from 1812 is what I have mentioned and the only reason I had that was that he travelled with my Livingstons aboard the Robert Taylor and he is interestingly enough known to the Red River Livingstons back from when they resided on the Island of Islay. I dont know where John McVicar was living on Islay in 1812 but when he returned in 1818 according to Livingstons he was at Bowmore.

I'm pretty certain John and Katharine were both from Bowmore area- as mentioned above, I believe John's father was Archibald McVicar of Gartachossin- Archibald McVicar can be found on the 1811 Tenant Records for Islay and he was still in there in 1828 (although there's no mention of John so perhaps he'd already gone back to Canada).

Glad the Miles Livingston Red River settlement info here at the Forum was of some help in researching you ancestor John McVicar. Yes it is unfortunate that is such a hazzle to get access to the Selkirk Papers. THere is alot of interesting info to be found no doubt in that collection for anyone whose ancestor was a part of that settlement. You should also check with the Manitoba Archives people and see what they suggest. And of course there is the Selkirk Society.

Thanks for the suggestions- I've emailed Manitoba Archives and am waiting to hear back from them. I've also been in touch with the archivist at the Diocese of Rupert' Land but so far that hasn't netted me anything useful. Tomorrow I'm heading to the Toronto Reference Library as they have quite a few files related to the Red River Settlement that may be worth looking at.

I'll post anything I find that's useful. Thanks again!

[CallieK]

I made it to the Toronto Reference Library yesterday and was pleased to discover they have a considerable amount of info on RRS in their holdings. I stuck mainly to books (they also have much on microfilm and other resources) and am slowly gaining a good overview of the events between 1811 and 1815 and the key people involved. I didn't find anything definitive yet to prove that the John McVicar of this group is one and same as my ancestor (no mention of Katharine by name nor anything on of the three boys so far) but I am getting a bit more of his personality!

One of the books I found most useful is the ridiculously long titled Statement respecting the Earl of Selkirk's settlement of Kildonan upon the Red River in North America: Its destruction in the years 1815 and 1816, and the massacre of Governor Semple and his party Halkett, John (1768-1852)
It can also be found online http://peel.library.ualberta.ca/bibliography/91.html I found the appendix particularly helpful. The following images are from this source and are transcripts of letters from D Cameron addressed to Donal Livinstone and Hector McEachern. John McVicar is mentioned in both and I found the descriptions rather amusing!






I have also been in touch with the Archives of the Diocese of Rupert’s Land http://www.rupertsland.ca/about/archives/
They do have a partial list of baptism performed by Mile MacDonell in their records (in the preface of the St. John's (Anglican) Cathedral baptismal records (1813-1828)). Sadly no mention of McVicars but the staff are very helpful and they have a card file of other names that may be helpful to others.

Still waiting to hear back from Manitoba Archives on other records I've requested and I've plans fora return date to the Reference library to see what I else I can uncover!