Canadian Livingstones

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Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2704
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Canadian Livingstones

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Robin,
Here are some essential things found regarding Charlotte's father WIlliam LIvingstone and his family all on one page to look over.

Here is the Census info for 1861 for your ancestor WIlliam Livingstone residing with his grandfather George Angus in Aberdeen, Aberdeenshire

Aberdeen, Aberdeenshire St. Nicholas District, St Clements Parish 42 1/2 St. Clements Street

George Angus age 49 father born Fyvie, Aberdeenshire
Janet Angus age 49 mother (Janet maiden name Shand) born Logie, Aberdeenshire
Margaret Cail age 29 daughter (Salmon fisher's wife) born Slains, Aberdeenshire (married to seaman/ fisherman and resident not listed James McCaie/Cail/Cay (probably busy fishing for Salmon)
Charlotte Angus daughter age 14 daughter born Old Machar, Aberdeenshire
Alexander Angus age 11 son born Aberdeen, Aberdeenshire
William Livingstone age 5 grandson born Aberdeen, Aberdeenshire (Mother Margaret Cail or McCaie maiden name Angus)
James A Cail under 4 months grandson (named after father James McCaie, Cail or Cay) (Mother Margaret Cail


The only marriage record for Margaret Angus daughter of George Angus of Aberdeen that I could find from the 1850's The marriage to James McCaie (Cay or Cail) William's step father
District of St. Nicholas, Burgh of Aberdeen
Margaret Angus age 22 Spinster of 52 St. Clements Street Aberdeen and James McCaie Seaman age 21 Bachelor of 42 1/2 St. Clements Street, Aberdeen
Married June 22, 1856
Parents of Margaret Angus are George Angus Gatekeeper and Janet Shand, Parents of James McCaie are John McCaie and Lucy Wood
Witnesses: George Angus and John McCaie
Marriage registered June 23, 1856 Aberdeen
(Makes no mention of Margaret Angus being a widow or previously married)

Here is basic information from William Livingstone's 1876 marriage record and his 1932 death record. I took another look at them.

District of St. Mary's Burgh of Dundee (in County of Angus) Marriage Record

William Livingstone Ship Plate Rivetter age 20 of Dundee Bachelor and Jane Doig age 19 Factory hand spinster of Dundee married May 2, 1876
Parents of William Livingstone: William Livingstone Boiler maker deceased and Margaret Cay previously Livingston maiden name Angus
Parents of Janet Doig: Thomas Doig, Mason's laborer and Elizabeth McKenzie
Marriage officially registered in Dundee on May 3, 1876

Note: I missed the fact that William stated that his mother was previously Livingston before Cay suggesting that she and his father were married. So perhaps it cant be ruled out that they were briefly married before William was born. There is no marriage record between a Margaret ANgus and William Livingstone in the 1850's unfortunately to prove that. One good thing about this detailed marriage info is that clearly William identifies his father as being William Livingstone boiler maker. There must have a been a William Livingstone boiler maker. His mother would not just have conjured up that name for her son.

1932 Death Record Northern District Aberdeen

William Livingstone Plasterer Journeyman died April 14, 1932 age 76 yrs of Chronic Endocarditis and Senility Woodland Hospital, Aberdeen
Former Residence 76 Loch Street Aberdeen Married to Janet Doig Parents: Father: no information provided Mother: Margaret Angus Domestic Servant deceased
Informant: Janet Livingstone widow Old Mill Hospital Aberdeen
Death officially registered April 15, 1932 Aberdeen

Thought putting it all together might help.

regards,

Donald
Druske
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:40 am

Re: Canadian Livingstones

Post by Druske »

Good evening Donald.

I am truly indebted to you. Thank you. This has been so overwhelming for me and I'm thrilled that you and John have been so generous with your time and were able to make a huge dent in my brick wall. I am so pleased that I joined this site, you gents are awesome!!

I am located near Toronto, Ontario if you ever need any pictures of headstones, etc please ask. I would like to return the genealogical act of kindness. :)

I am excited for the work week to be over so that I can dive into these amazing leads! Thank you and have a great day!

Robin
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2704
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Canadian Livingstones

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Robin,
No problem. Finding lost livingston ancestors is what were all about here. This forum gets a lot of Livingston/Livingstone related inquiries as you can see. It was only a last thought to check for a Charlotte Livingstone born in 1894 instead of 1895 and then William and Jane Livingston came up the only ones with those names and then it pretty certain that this was probably the right family although Charlotte's 1919 marriage record filled in with info provided by her husband George Allen only mentioned his wife's mother as being "Jeanette which gave us only a first name no Doig. I am certain we have the right parents for your Charlotte Livingstone who married George Patrick Allen. It helped of course that in your first message to the forum you also mentioned the name "Doig". So you provided enough clues to help make some progress in the research.
I think the information William includes on his parents in his marriage record was particularly interesting: " Father: WIlliam LIvingstone Boiler Maker deceased Mother: Margaret Cay formerly Livingston maiden name Angus" This is the only source I found which mentions his father's name as his wife when she provided info for William's death record in 1932 clearly did not know or remember the name of her husband's father and only provided the name of his mother with her maiden name Margaret Angus.


William Livingstone (Charlotte's father) passed away in 1932 at the Woodland Hospital in Aberdeen. I couldn't read the original information, but checked and there was and apparently still is a Woodland hospital in Aberdeen.
regards,

Donald
Druske
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:40 am

Re: Canadian Livingstones

Post by Druske »

Good evening Donald.

I've started plotting this new information on a piece of chart paper. It's very interesting for sure! I can't find the James Livingstone that you last mentioned, how does he fit again?

I'm not sure that the Charlotte you found travelling in 1911 would be my great grandmother as her eldest son, Douglas Forbes Livingstone has a dob of April 1, 1918 in England (as found in the travel document from Canada to USA in 1919). I'm wondering if the reason that you aren't finding the family in the censuses is because they went to England for some reason maybe?

This information you have shared is fantastic. I am going to be busy in the near future :).

Have a great night.

Robin
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2704
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Canadian Livingstones

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Robin,

Oddly enough I think I have found William Livingstone censused as a bootmaker? age 25 and his wife Jane 24 back in Dundee, Angus where they had been married in 1876 as you may recall residing in St. Andrew's district in the 1881 Scottish census. The bootmaker occupation threw me off and I did not see them as William was a plasterer. The two children recorded William and Rose Ann however are recorded as being age 8 and 4 months which is not the correct age for them at that time so could be some errors in this census record but most importantly it is correct regarding the names of these two children of William Livingston and Jane Doig. HOwever with those two names and the fact that the 1881 census info for them indicated both William and Rose Ann were born in Aberdeen I did indeed find that this Wiliam and Rose Ann were infact the children of the William Livingston and Janet Doig that seem to be the parents of your ancestor Charlotte Livingston born in 1895. As William and Janet were married in 1876 I am assuming that from 1876 to 1881 they had only these children. I am going to try and find other born after that between 1881 and 1895. Anyways the 1881 Census is correct in that WIliam Livingstone and Janet Doig did have two children before the 1881 Census Rose Ann born 1877 and William Jr. in 1880 both born by the way in St. Nicholas District, Aberdeen City, Aberdeenshire

Rose Ann Livingstone b. March 22, 1877 District of St. Nicholas, Aberdeen City, Aberdeenshire
Parents: William Livingstone Plasterer's Laborer and Jane Doig

William Livingstone b. July 20, 1880 District of St. Nicholas, Aberdeen City, Aberdeenshire
Parents: William Livingstone Plasterer Journeyman and Jane Doig

Also you mentioned a possible brother being Thomas
Thomas Doig Livingstone b. December 14 1890 District of Kirkcaldy and Abottshall County of Fife
Parents William Livingstone Boiler Maker and Jane Doig



regards,

Donald
Druske
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:40 am

Re: Canadian Livingstones

Post by Druske »

Good evening Donald.

Unbeknownst to you, you're convincing me to get access to Scotlandspeople by the amazing information you are finding! The best tidbit is on Thomas! By the birth date you've found, I am confident that a Military file that I found on a Thomas Livingstone for the Blackwatch is indeed the Thomas Livingstone in my lineage. I'm am very pleased that you've found that link! Thank you. The military file has a wealth of information, including mentioning a brother named Forbes. If you recall, Forbes is Charlotte's son Douglas' middle name. Very interesting indeed.

My curiosity on Douglas' parentage has me looking for Charlotte near Liverpool England in June/July 1917. My ggrandfather was a soldier and was in a hospital in Liverpool around that time. Coupled with the border crossing record that states that Douglas was born in England April 1918, I'm wondering if Charlotte was impregnated by the soldier while overseas. It just seems strange for George Patrick Allen to come back to Ontario in the spring of 1919 from serving overseas and marry Charlotte in the summer; 1 year old Douglas in tow. Hmmmmm....

Once again Douglas, you have given me a great gift. Thank you.

Robin
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2704
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Canadian Livingstones

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Robin,
In some of the older parish records there are some records missing, but generally speaking with the Church of Scotland records there is a very good chance that more often than not you can find what you are looking for. In the case of William's father, the mysterious William Livingston I really don't know where to look. I assume he was born in the 1820's or early 1830's possibly in Aberdeen or lived in Aberdeenshire and was probably alive at the time of the 1851 and 1841 Scottish census and around the time of William Juniors birth 1855? employed as a boiler maker. INteresting that WIlliam Junior in the birth entry for his son Thomas Doig Livingston referred to himself as William Livingston Boiler maker. I take it then he was was both a plasterer and a trained boiler maker. Could he have learned boiler maker trade from his mysterious father or did his father die before William Junior was born in 1855? William's father is indeed a bit of a mystery and unfortunately a bit of road block in terms of tracing William juniors Livingston family line further generations back which I a sure will be frustrating to you. Otherwise I could taken your Livingston family line likely back to sometime in the 1700's as I frequently do with other Livingston researchers through the Clan Maclea Livingstone Society forum.

It helps that you provided some names of the Livingstons that you thought were connected to Charlotte, once it was verified who Charlotte's parents likely were. There are a hundreds of Livingstones, so particularly with the birth after 1855 it is a bit of a needle in a haystack unless you know specifically who and where to look in the birth records. I had a idea regarding the possible birth location but a search if complicated by the fact that it looks like William and his family moved from time to time I would assume because of his work. Also the search feature does not for births after 1855 allow a search based on the mother and father's name which you can do with parents of those born before 1855 in Scotland. Yes absolutely. Check out Scotlands people to get access to the original documents. Remember the entries can be under Livingstone or Livingston which is a bit of a pain. THe odd time you have to search Levingston but for the most part Livingstone of Livingston usually works.

What a coincidence we have a Forbes.
Forbes Livingston birth entry
District of St. Nicholas Burgh of Aberdeen

Forbes Livingston born December 13, 1892
Parents: WIlliam Livingston Plasterer's laborer and Jane Doig
Married May 2. 1876 Dundee

This family seems be moving from one place and back to another which makes it a challenge locating them, though they to return from time to time to Aberdeen city and that is where both William and Jane died. Difficult to know precisely which County to look at any one time period for William and Jane's family but here is another one of Charlotte's siblings.

I thought I had mentioned this in an earlier message but in case I did not.
Jane Livingston widow of William Livingston Plasterer died February 26,1943 age 85 yrs. New Deer, County of Aberdeen
Parents: Thomas Doig and Elizabeth McKenzie

I noticed that Jane Livingston is always referred to as Jane Livingston in the records and not Janet. George Allen in his 1919 marriage record refers to Charlotte's parents as William Livingston and Janette when it should have been Jane. I hope we still have the correct family. Perhaps Janette was George Allen's error. My ancestor Miles Livingston married a Janet Livingston also referred to as Jannette in the later family records. What really threw me off was a record from 1812, a list of settlers which referred to Janet or Janette Livingston as Jessie Livingston. It was not until years later that I checked a list of 19th century nicknames that given me from a genealogist some years ago and sure enough Jessie was a nickname sometime used with Janet. When I was researching an ancestor of dutch ancestry I found that dutch nicknames often were used which presented challenges to anyone not familiar with them. I checked one source which stated that in Scotland Jane and Jannette both used to refer to the same person so hopefully George Allen who was from Ireland was refering to Charlotte's mother Jane Doig. Seems likely.

regards,

Donald
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2704
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Canadian Livingstones

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Robin,

I see Douglas F. Livingston in that border crossing record . He and Charlotte A Livingson were heading for Oak Park, Illinois according to the record and crossing at Michigan. Everybody crossing the border in the early 1900's had to fill out some sort of border crossing form whether visiting America or planning to live their permanently. I think they were just visiting. How do you know about Douglas F Livingston being Douglas Forbes Livingston? I could not find Douglas Forbes Livingston. I checked the original document which lists Charlotte A Livingston age 23 and Douglas F. Livingston age 21. They crossed at Michigan but were heading for Oak Park, Illinois. Under last permanent address for both was Toronto, Canada. Something I noticed is that it does not give their birthplace actually it just asks them their language "English" and their Race which they stated was "Scotch". I think you saw "English" and thought that was Douglas Livingston's birthplace actually all that was his spoken language. I checked it carefully and birthplace is not asked oddly enough. Age 1 would suggest a birthdate of 1918 and more than likely that birth I would suspect was in Canada. The nation of origin is listed as Canada when you check the original document. The ancestry.com or ca summary perhaps stated they or Douglas was english or born in england perhaps, but the original document only states "English" when asked language they spoke. All the document really tells one is that they are of scottish ancestry and live inToronto crossed the border in Michigan and went to Oak Park, Illinois which is unfortunately somewhat vague, but its not like a more detailed census document. You are sure about Douglas F. Livingston being Douglas Forbes Livingston? This was your Uncle I assume, so I guess you would know his middle name. But just thought I would check. "Forbes" as you know is I think is an important clue linking the Canadian Charlotte to William Livingston and Jane Doig as they had a son named Forbes.

regards,

Donald
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2704
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Canadian Livingstones

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Robin,
I had forgotten that the 1921 Census had been released to the general public by the Government of Canada, not too long ago. I figured like the 1901 and 1911 Census it would record when someone had recently arrived in Canada and it did. I was not clear precisely when Charlotte had arrived.

The 1921 Canadian Census helps to clarify a few things regarding Charlotte (Mrs George Allen) and her family in Canada. It appears that George Allen and Charlotte and Douglas arrived together in Canada in 1918 which makes sense, about a year or so before they were married in Toronto. Also clear that Douglas was born in ENgland as you mentioned though it is odd that census information stated that Douglas Allen's parents were English. I think that part is likely an error on the part of the census taker. Despite the fact that Douglas was born a year or so before their marriage in Toronto in 1919 is it not possible that George Allen is his father and not his step father? The only way to know for certain I guess is to check Douglas Allen's death record. My hunch is that George Allen is actually the father of Douglas and not his step father but I could be wrong.

1921 Canadian Census (Province of Ontario) Nipissing - Sudbury Town Ryan Ward District 87

George Allen age 46 Irish mother and father listed as Irish he came to Canada in 1918
Charlotte Allen age 27 Scottish mother and father listed as Scottish she came to Canada in 1918
Douglas Allen age 3 English mother and father listed as both being English? he came to Canada in 1918
Jennie Allen age 1
George Allen age 1/12

regards,

Donald
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2704
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Canadian Livingstones

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Robin,
I think I have some good news.
"Forbes" as mentioned in my previous is a significant piece in your Livingston family puzzle and may be the key to taking your Livingston ancestry a few generations farther back. I can't locate William's father William Livingston in the records except for him mentioned in William Junior's marriage record of 1876. So it seemed to me that was the end of that, however you mentioned that you thought or knew that Douglas F. Livingston was actually Douglas Forbes Livingston and then to support that if that is the case we have a brother of Douglas F. Livingston's mother who was Forbes Livingston. I now think I can link Charlotte to a probable relative possibly an Uncle Charles Forbes Livingston who resided in St. Nicholas Parish, Aberdeen City in the 1850's and 1860's. He married Elizabeth Baxter October 17, 1846 daughter of the later Alexander Baxter at Fisherrow, Aberdeen and subsequently resided in St. Nicholas District where the ANgus family was residing in the 1850's and 1860's. The information I have found so far states that a Charles Forbes Livingston was born January 21 1818 to John Livingston and Isabella Forbes in Inverurie, Aberdeen. Unfortunately I could find no other children or a William born in the early 1800's to John Livingston and Isabella Forbes but at least this new information points us in the right direction I think and may take you back a few Livingston generations. We may have to speculate how William's father connected to Charles FOrbes Livingston born 1818. Charles FOrbes Livingston may well of had brothers and sisters but I dont seem their names in the parish records. But at this information shows how the Forbes family is connected to at least one Livingston who resided in St. Nicholas District in the 1850's around the same time as Charlotte's father William Livingston was born. One more clue that Charlotte's father's father was likely connected to this Livingston-Forbes family line. We dont have all the details but there is definitely some sort of connection to your Charlotte Livingston in this I think.

Charles Forbes Livingston and his wife Elizabeth Baxter had several children and most of their children are recorded in the parish records. Here are the ones I have found so far, many of which are recorded with the Forbes family name.
These children were all born in Aberdeen City
William Stewart Livingston born May 23 1846 Baptised June 22, 1846
John Forbes Livingston born Sept 5 1848 baptised Oct. 5 1848
Isabella Forbes livingston born July 13, 1851 baptised July 29, 1851
Charles Forbes Livingston born September 18, 1858 Aberdeen City St. Nicholas District
Mary Baxter Livingston born July 15, 1861 born Sept. 18, 1861 Aberdeen City, St. Nicholas District
Forbes Livingston born December 6, 1862 Aberdeen city St. Nicholas District

I guess that is where is the Forbes in Douglas Forbes Livingston comes from. I am disappointed that I was not able to locate a WIlliam Livingston son of John Livingston and Isabella Forbes but I think that Charles Forbes Livingston who resides in St. Nicholas District where Charlotte's father grew up as a boy his ANgus kin in the 1850's and 1860's is probably Charlotte's Uncle. THen of course I almost missed another more obvious clue to the Forbes connection, FOrbes Livingston son of WIliam Livingston and Jane Doig. THere can be no doubt that Charlotte's father William Livingston was descended from this John Livingston and Isabella Forbes. I would assume since their son Charles was born in 1818 that John and Isabella were born in the late 1700's but I have no info on them. I could not find a marriage record for them which I was hoping to discover I will go back and check where they were living at the time their son Charles Forbes Livingston was born in 1818 but of course they could be people that moved around a lot.

regards,

Donald
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