Canadian Livingstones

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jmlivingstone
Posts: 533
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:34 pm

Re: Canadian Livingstones

Post by jmlivingstone »

Robin,

I found two family trees on Ancestry containing probable reference to your family, both contain some birth, death & marriage certificates, one going back to the late 1700's, they are certainly worth a look. If you don't have an Ancestry account, I believe you can still open a one month free subscription.

The trees are as follows;

1. Southall/Birss, owned by MairiCat, who is resident NSW, Australia.

2. Brown Family Tree, owned by johnmory, probably resident around New York.

I found them by searching public member trees, & typing in Forbes Livingstones death in 1892 & his wife as Mary Fiddes.

John.
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2701
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Canadian Livingstones

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Robin,

You mentioned a sister of Charlotte possibly Margaret Livingston

Margaret Angus Livingston born March 9, 1888 St. Nicholas District, Aberdeen
Parents: William Livingston Plasterer Journeyman and Jane Doig

Margaret was named after Margaret Angus who was William Livingston's mother.

Also Helen Doig Livingstone b. August 23, 1885 St. Nicholas District, Aberdeen
Parents: William Livingstone Plasterer Journeyman and Jane Doig
regards,

Donald
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2701
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Canadian Livingstones

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi John,
I am really excited about all the Australian records that are available through Ancestry.com. I was recently looking at some very early Australian records listing early Livingston arrivals to the colony in the year early years of the 1820's and 1830's. In many cases the name of the ship that brought them to Australia/New South Wales is included. I had never seen records for Livingstons settling in Australia before the 1830's so it was great to learn that Livingstons were among some of the earliest settlers. I would imagine today there are good number of Australians with Livingstone/Livingston ancestry. No doubt we all have Livingston cousins in Australia.

regards,

Donald
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2701
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Canadian Livingstones

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Robin,

The family of William Livingston and Jane Doig
(or at least as many of them as I could locate)
William Livingston Plasterer and Jane Doig were married May 2, 1876 in Dundee, Angus
1. Rose Ann Livingstone b. March 22, 1877 St. Nicholas District, Aberdeen
2. William Livingstone b. July 20, 1880 St. Nicholas District, Aberdeen
3. Helen Doig Livingstone b. Aug. 23, 1885 St. Nicholas District, Aberdeen
4.Margaret Angus Livingston . March 9, 1888 St. Nicholas District, Aberdeen
5. Thomas Doig Livingstone b. Dec. 14, 1890 District of Kirkcaldy and Abottshall, Fifeshire
6. Forbes Livingston b. Dec. 13 1892 St. Nicholas District, Aberdeen
7. Charlotte Livingston b. Nov. 27, 1894 Pathhead, Dysart, Fifeshire m. George Patrick Allen 1919 in Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2701
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Canadian Livingstones

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Robin,

I located Douglas Forbes Allen's baptismal records and that of his younger brother George Patrick Allen Jr in the Catholic records. This apparently took place in Sudbury where the family was living in 1921 as we know from the 1921 Canadian Census information on the family.

Christ Roi CHurch Parish of St. Joseph, Sudbury
Douglas Forbes Allen born April 1, 1918 Sudbury, Ontario baptized July 3, 1921 Sudbury, Ontario. Rev. JJ Horne or Home (cant read last name)

George Patrick Allen born May 31, 1921 Sudbury, Ontario baptized July 3 1921 Sudbury, Ontario Rev. JJ Horne or Home (cant read last name)

Mary Charlotte Winifred Allen born June 29, 1922 Sudbury, Ontario baptized July 3, 1923 Sudbury Ontario

Parents listed as George Patrick Allen and Charlotte Livingston




This early document further reinforces the notion that your ancestor Charlotte Livingston is descended from John Livingston and Isabella Forbes of Inverurie and later Aberdeen City, Aberdeenshire.

regards,

Donald
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2701
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Canadian Livingstones

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi John,
Interestingly Forbes Livingston son of John Livingston and Isabella Forbes born abt. 1837 seemed to be travelling back and forth over the years from Aberdeen and New South Wales, Australia. Forbes was born abt. 1837 in Inverurie, Aberdeenshire, but lived later in Aberdeen. The first record from 1866 mentions Inveruary or Inverurie, the later ones his origin point of Aberdeen. There is no birth record to pinpoint it precisely. I think I saw 1866, 1872,1884 and 1886. Forbes would have been a brother of William Livingston's father William I presume.

regards,

Donald
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2701
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Canadian Livingstones

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Robin and John,

Charlotte was Presbyterian and her husband George Patrick Allen was Catholic. They were married in a Catholic church in Sudbury, Ontario on July 14,1919. Among the records pertaining to the family in Sudbury with the Christ Roi, Parish of St. Joseph, Sudbury, Ontario was a marriage entry marriage for George and Charlotte July 14, 1919 which states Charlotte Livingston age 25 was born in Peebleshire, Scotland Parents: William and Jane Livingston George Allen age 45 soldier born Franville, Ontario Parents Robert Allen Janet Till The earlier record from Toronto was apparently just their Marriage license date May 16th 1919.

I checked both the parish records and the Scottish records and as far as these records go there no record of a Charlotte Livingston born or residing in Peebleshire, Scotland in the 1894 or 1895 period later in 1901 or one that was a daughter of a William and Jane or Janet Livingston.

Then on July 13, 1920 there is a record that Mrs Charlotte Allen was baptized at the Christ Roi in Sudbury as she had been raised Presbyterian. I assume this means she converted and joined the Catholic church of her husband. Parents recorded as WIlliam and Jane Livingston. This time it states that Charlotte was born in Glasgow, Scotland on February 28, 1895. Again there is no record of a Charlotte Livingston born or baptised in 1895 in Glasgow, Lanarkshire or a Charlotte Livingston residing in Glasgow or elsewhere subsequently at the time of the 1901 Census anywhere in Scotland with parents named William and Jane Livingston. As mentioned the only record I found for a Charlotte Livingston born in the 1890's a child of a William and Jane Livingston was the Charlotte Livingston born in 1894 to parents William Livingston and Jane Doig originally of Aberdeen. I assume and hope it is some sort of decrepancy in the church records. It is a mystery where this birth information came from in these Canadian records.

How to sort this out. The only thing I would advise is to check Charlotte Allen's 1974 death certificate which may (0r may not) list her mother's maiden name. Unfortunately neither the 1919 marriage record from Toronto or the 1919 marriage information from Sudbury gave Charlotte's mother's maiden name which I think we understood to be Doig. The other thing Robin is if you have family information of your own from relatives in Canada that Charlotte's mother was Doig that would be helpful to be 100 percent certain. Logic tells me we have the right family back in Scotland but Charlotte's birth info from the Sudbury church records I have found does not match up with the information that she was the daughter of the William Livingston and Jane Doig of Aberdeen. Now there is one possibility that might explain this. Charlotte's birth record indicated she was born or her birth registered in Pathhead, Dysart, Fifeshire daughter of William Livingston and Jane doing , so the family was not in Aberdeen at the time and perhaps Charlotte could not remember precisely in what County she was born, only that her mother was not at Aberdeen when she was born. She may have got mixed up but that being the case why does it say Peebleshire and Glasgow and give a birth date of Feb. 28, 1895, Glasgow Scotland. Something is not quite right. I would be curious what information was included in her death certificate in 1974 or the cemetery record and if that could clear this up. This would not be the first time I am come across someone making errors in their birth place information though mistaking the date of birth does seem odd. Well I guess there is a chance I got this wrong, but based on the clues provided regarding Charlotte's family this appeared to be the correct family.

The information I have is that Charlotte Livingstone's birth took place on November 27, 1894 at Pathhead, Dysart, FIfeshire and that it was registered on December 14, 1894 in Dysart, Fifeshire but perhaps she was baptised elsewhere a few months later and maybe that is what the Feb. 28, 1895 confusion is all about, but I just don't know.



regards,

Donald
jmlivingstone
Posts: 533
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:34 pm

Re: Canadian Livingstones

Post by jmlivingstone »

Donald,

Just sent you some bdm's + census for 1901 & 1911, Charlotte, age 16, res. Old Machar, Aberdeenshire 1911, looks hopeful.

Sent them to your own e-mail address, the private e-mail on site wouldn't accept the files,

John
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2701
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Canadian Livingstones

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi John,
Thanks for that. I replied to your message. Can you let me know if you got my response. The odd time my messages may not get through if your computer does not recognize the source as not being spam. Does happen the odd time. I think the discrepancy in the birth info in the Scottish records and in the Sudbury Canada records can be explained by the fact that Charlotte was born while her father and family were travelling and were away from Aberdeen. The birth according the Scottish records occurred in Dysart, Fifeshire but Charlotte may had never seen that document. She knew from the family she was not born in Aberdeen but must of forgotten by the time she got to Canada where in what town or County she was born. That probably also explains why in 1919 marriage record from the Catholic church records it is stated she was born in Glasgow Scotland which is in the County of Lanarkshire and then when she became a Catholic and was baptized in the Catholic in 1920 then she stated she was born only stating in the County of Peebleshire. I thought about this and realized that this likely suggests she really did know or could not remember where she was actually born. It appears that she did realize correctly that she was one of only two children in her family who were not born in Aberdeen. Anyways I think this might explain the birth information discrepancy between the Scottish records for Charlotte born to William Livingston and Jane Doig of Aberdeen and the Charlotte later in Sudbury, Canada. If my theory is correct this is not the first time I have found a Livingston in the records who seemed uncertain as to their birthplace or the information itself was recorded wrongly by those recording the information.

In my own Livingston family I have had some challenges in terms of birth info to deal with.
In the Case of my great-great-great grandfather Miles Livingston b.1775 in Argyllshire there is his June 20, 1812 marriage recorded as a marriage entry in the Kilarrow Parish records of the Old Round Church at the port of Bowmore, Island of Islay, the original building still survives. My Livingstons migrated in the late 1700's/early 1800's to Islay where they found apparently work as carpenters, boatbuilders and barrel makers presumingly of use in the Whiskey industry there. Some of them ended up in Kilmeny and Kilarrow apparently. Miles my ancestor married Janet or Janette Livingston in Bowmore, Kilarrow Parish but the Presbyterian/Church of Scotland minister notes that Miles Livingston and his bride Janet Livingston are not of the Parish or from Islay but "natives of Morvern". He also notes that they were on their way to America. They were actually boarding the Schooner Staffa at Mull or at Bowmore, Islay with other Islay and Mull Settlers for the port of SLigo Ireland where a Hudsons Bay Company vessel the Robert Taylor was waiting to take the settlers to Lord Selkirk's Red River Colony at the time in Hudsons Bay company territory in British North America. In Lord Selkirk's Red River Colony record my ancestor Miles Livingston was initially hired as boatbuilder along with an apparent cousin Donald Livingstone who states in a 1817 deposition that he was also born in Morvern. Both Miles and Donald are listed on a list of settlers who arrived later in 1812 at Hudsons Bay on the way to Red River Colony about 800 miles south of Hudsons Bay. THe REd river colony records recorded by a clerk however include Miles and Donald as being from Mull along with a group of Mcleans from Mull and others from Mull who were aboard the RObert Taylor with the Livingstons. SO some people going through the Red River colony records may assume that Miles and Donald were from Mull rather than Morvern. The red river records are helpful however in that they record an age when Miles was at the colony and it suggests he was born about 1775.

A more interesting challenge to the marriage info that my ancestor was born in Morvern, Argyllshire is a record from nearby Island of Lismore contained in the old Lismore Parish records which records the baptism of a Myles Livingston in the year 1775 the son of Donald Livingston and Christine Campbell of Cloichlea, Island of Lismore. This record was first brought to the attention of a late cousin in the 1980s who was researching the Livingstons and was in touch the late Baron Alastair Livngstone our Clan Chief at that time. The Baron was familiar with the Lismore Livingston records and noticed there was Myles Livingston baptised in 1775 on the Island. So depending on what record you come across one could assume that my ancestor Miles Livingston was born in Morvern, the neighbouring Island of Lismore or neighbouring Mull. I lean toward the notion he was born in Morvern. THe fact that it says so in his marriage record and was the information he provided to the Islay minister suggests the information came directly from Miles himself. Secondly the fact that the other boatbuilder Donald Livingston born abt. 1791 who acccompanied Miles to the Lord Selkirk colony in 1812 stated in an 1817 deposition which I have a copy of that he was also a native of Morvern also makes me think that these Livingston kin of mine all originated from Morvern and not Mull or Lismore. Still it an odd coincidence that there was a family residing on the Island of Lismore in 1775 who also had a son named Miles Livingston. It is very curious and frustrating thing when there are discrepancies in the birth records. I know you have had to struggle with some formidable challenges with the information on your Argyllshire ancestor ANgus Livingston so I can relate to your own Livingston genealogy situation.

What is known and Baron Neil Livingstone pointed this out me a few years ago is that the name MIles Livingston is both peculiar to the Morvern and neighbouring Lismore records and seems in the Argyllshire record quite specific in this area in Western Argyllshire. Also a family living in the Savary, Morvern the Mcinnes family who were cousins of the Livingstons there used the name Miles. There was an old-timer Miles McInnes who lived at Savary for many years in the 1800's who I wondered if he might have been a cousin of my Morvern born Miles Livingston. Unfortunately if my great-great-great grandfather Miles Livingston was born in Morvern Parish in 1775 there is no surviving birth or baptismal record for him in Morvern because the Morvern Parish Church of Scotland parish records do not survive before the early 1800's unlike the Lismore and APpin Parish records that date from the 1750's.

regards,

Donald
jmlivingstone
Posts: 533
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:34 pm

Re: Canadian Livingstones

Post by jmlivingstone »

Hi Donald,

I got your reply, was too busy to get back to you, this is the first chance I've had.

I can't remember if I sent you a copy of the 1901 census for Forbes, he was also living away from his family, but not at the same location as Charlotte. Unfortunately, it does not say where he is living, it's four page forum, I have so far only found the page with Forbes on it, hopefully I'll find the previous page tonight.

John
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