www.clanlivingstone.info

Hi Guys


I’m a newbie who joined last week but have been researching my highland Livingstones for sometime. I’m also from a family that has historically believed we are related to David Livingstone ! Although I think this is probably true for most of your members. My story is a fairly long one but I’d be really keen to know if you can help me as I am currently hitting the proverbial brick wall.

My name is Malcolm Cameron Newing. My paternal grandmother was a Sarah Cameron Livingstone. She was born in 1866 in Brig O’Turk, at age 16 she moved to Portsmouth where she met a Royal marine called John Newing . She wed and thereafter ,according to my elder brother, never returned to Scotland but would cry about it every New Years Eve. I was 5 when she died but her impact on my immediate family was such that I really thought I was Scottish until my late teens and always supported them (following my dad) whenever they played England at Football or Rugby!! All her grandchildren have the Cameron name as do all her great grand children. My initial research therefore started out trying to follow our Cameron Ancestry. I was too young to remember but my siblings say nan was adamant that David Livingstone was a relative but unfortunately none of them followed this up with her before she died in 1960.

My nans father was an Allan Livingstone born I believe in Kilchoan, Ardnumurchan. I have him captured in the 1841 census in Orsaigmore and have captured him in every census up to his death in 1904.
In 1841 he was shown as a 12 year old living with his father and mother. The father was Duncan Livingstone married to a Mary McMillan. You will find Duncan on your Livingstone list on the website and you have captured most of his children although not Allan which I will come to in a minute. Duncan and Mary had 9 children in order Allan (b c1829), Archibald (b 9th Nov 1829), Margaret/Peggy (b 12th April 1832), Mary (b 19th May 1834), Margery Livingston (b 11th April 1836), Anne Livingston (b c 1837), Catherine Livingston (b 9th February 1839), Mary Livingston (b 19th December 1841), Anne Livingston (b 14th May 1845) and Christian Livingston (b 1st January 1850). The first 8 were all born in Ardnamurchan in the Kilchoan area where Duncan was a Shepherd at Coirrievulin, Skinnid, and Orsaigmore. This is tracked via church birth records. Unlike many elsewhere these were recorded very well in the Kilchoan Church records including the fact that the baptisms were witnessed by either individuals or the Kilchoan congregation. The 9th Child Anne (the second one) was born in Acharacle . It would seem from this information and the fact that he is always shown as aShepherd that he was one of the lucky tenants of Ardnamurchan kept on whilst the crofts were being cleared in the 1820’s and 1830’s. He and his wife were married in 1826 and in the church record are shown as both servants working at Inversanda.( was there a major family in Inversanda at that time ?) His 10th child , Christian was born at Trislaig where by 1851 he had become a crofter of 3 Acres. He remained there until 1881 by which time his wife Mary had died in 1875. In 1891, aged 85 he was living in Oban with his daughter Mary (second one) who had married a Donald Livingstone with their wedding Register showing the couple as second cousins.

I have unfortunately not been able to find a birth record for either my Great Grandfather Allan or the first Anne although both are living with Duncan in 1841. Whilst I understand that might have meant they weren’t Duncans children as that detail did not exist in the 1841 census, Allan shows Duncan and Mary as his parents on his Wedding Certificate and they are also shown as his parents on his death record. I have no other records for Anne (first one) and am guessing she died as they had a later child called Anne.

I believe Duncans parents were John Livingstone and Catherine McIntyre ( sometimes K not C) and that he was born in Glenmore which fits with his having lived the early part of his life in Ardnamurchan and his father possibly being a crofter in the area. Unfortunately i have not been able to find a death certificate for Duncan which is particularly annoying. By the 1901 census, Mary had moved to Glasgow but her father was no longer with her. I’m guessing he died between 1891 and 1901 but can’t find a death entry that looks like him.

As I explained above Mary married her second cousin who was a Donald Livingston. His parents were Donald Livingston married to Janet Cameron who were married in Acharacle. If Donald Junior and Mary were second cousins this makes Donald Senior and my Duncan Cousins which given the geography makes a lot of sense. It would also mean that Donald seniors father and Duncans father John Livingston were brothers. Unfortunately I have no record of Donald seniors death which in any event is unlikely to be post 1855 so I haven’t been able to find his father and mother.

My question to you is could my Great Great Great Grandfather be John Livingstone, David Livingstones Uncle and hence Donald seniors unknown father also one of David Livingstones missing uncles possibly the mystery Donald ?

My problem is apart from the wedding church record for John Livingstone and Katherine McIntyre and the birth record for Duncan and their 4 other children, I can find nothing else on either John or Katherine. My John would have been born about the same time as Davids in the late 1700’s .I’ve no idea how my John came to be in Ardmurchan but its not a big step across from the Isle of Mull where David Livingstons father and family came from ? In addition I think it highly likely that John aged15/16 may well have struck out on his own. The letter from the church referred to 4 boys ( Charles, Duncan, Donald and Neil?) with the youngest being 3 years old presumably Neil and 3 daughters (mary, margaret and catherine?) with the youngest being 6 years presumably catherine. My John and Catherine had 4 other children Margaret, Ann, John and Donald who all lived to ripe old ages and whose death registrations confirm their parentage. Is it possible that my John and his unnamed brother were the brothers who went to Waterloo and never returned ? The other possibility is that unlike all his children he disappeared off to Canada or Australia following the clearances by Ridell in Ardnamurchan. All I know is I can’t find any trace of him or Katherine after the birth of Margaret in 1809. I do wonder if he and Duncan fell out as Duncan named none of his children John which seems odd?

I believe there is some information in the above which will update your site. I’d be very interested in any ideas you may have on where I could investigate further which might answer some of my questions ?

Kind regards


Malcolm

Hi Malcolm,

Welcome to the Clan Maclea Livingstone Society forum. I will firstly familiarize myself with your Livingstons and the family information you have provided us withand then see if I can answer some of your questions.

regards,

Donald (Livingstone) Clink
Historian
Clan Maclea Livingstone Society

Hi Malcolm,
Not much is known of Dr. Livingstone's Uncle John Livingston except that he was baptized in Lettermore, in Kilninian And Kilmore Parish Mull on April 13, 1777. His parents were Neil Livingston Sr. and Mary Morrison. Part of this is because it it not clear whether John ever left Mull and what became of him in the years following his birth in the 1770's in Lettermore, Mull. There is no record of him going to the Lowland Blantyre with his father Neil Livingston Sr. and his family. So the big question is what happened to him? I believe that John Livingston may have married a woman named Mary Laurie but I am not certain of that. I really don't what became of John Livingston. I think he was something of a mystery even to the children of the Livingstone family. Dr. Livingstone in his book Missionary Travels in South Africa is a brief biographical chapter at the beginning of the book mentions in passing that all of his Uncles participated in the Napoleonic War. Dr. Livingstone's descendants did not have information on John Livingston's family and apparently it was thought he had died in the Napoleonic War. I have seen no information regarding an Ardnmurchan Livingston connection with Dr. Livingston's Uncle or his Uncle John Livingston, so I am sorry as I don't think I can shed any light on the possibility of a connection with your Livingston family from Ardnamurchan.

You probably already have located this death record. Duncan Livingston retired farmer and widower of Mary McMillan died June 27, 1893 Airds Cres Oban, Kilmore and kilbride Parish age 85 years ? witness was his daughter Mary. Parents listed were John Livingston farmer deceased and Catharine McIntyre. So you are right on the mark regarding Duncan's parents. Don't see Duncan's birth record anywhere in any parish in Scotland with parents John Livingston or John Livingstone or Levingston and Catharine McIntyre unfortunately. It could be that the wrong info was recorded on this death record or that more likely that Duncan's birth records don't exist. And as Duncan was married before 1855 his marriage records if there were any won't list the names of his parents so chance of confirming their names from a secondary source. What was odd was that I could not find a John Livingston and Catharine McIntyre anywhere in the Argyllshire birth records with births of any children recorded in parish records. Sometimes I can't find a birth record but more often than not if so I find a record of other siblings but not in the case. Not a trace of John Livingston and Catharine McIntyre in the Church of Scotland Argyllshire records.

No sign of Allan Livingston or Livingstone in either the Kilmallie or Ardnamurchan Parish Records. Interestingly some of the children were recorded in the Ardnamurchan Parish records and others in Kilmallie Parish records in Argyllshire so from that then were some born in Ardnamurchan and a couple in Kilmallie? While I can't locate Duncan Livingston and Catharine McIntyre's son Allan in either. It appears from his 1861 and 1891 Census info he was born in Kilmallie parish not Ardnamurchan parish interestingly and in 1881 Census the location Kilchonan appears which I think you referred to by it's correct spelling as Kilchoan which seems to be in neighbouring Ardnamurchan and not Kilmallie. The youngest child Christian is born in 1850 and recorded in the Kilmallie Parish book. Interesting that he states in 1881 he was born at Kilchoan and in the 1861 and 1891 Kilmallie Parish is mentioned. The 1841 Census in which Allan and his parents Duncan Livingston and Mary McMillan and family were residing in Ardnamurchan does really pinpoint the specific parish or place of birth in that census.

regards,

Donald

Donald

Thanks for your prompt reply which is much appreciated. I actually hadn’tfound the death record for Duncan that you referred to although all the details make perfect sense as at the last census he was living in Airds crescent, Oban. Did you get it from Scotlandspeople? I have searched but still can’t get the Death Record to show. Do you have the GROS number please.

Before posting I had gone through one of your previous posts on David Livingston which was extensive so know most of what you have told me here. On that previous posting there was some talk about looking into the napoleonic war records at the Chelsea pensioners, which was due to go online. Did anybody follow up that piece of research?

I was a bit confused by your comment on John Livingston who married a Mary Laurie. I thought it was Mary Livingston (Neil and Mary Morrisons daughter) who married a John Laurie ?



My Duncans birth registration does exist, its in the Arnamurchan and Strontium and Sunart records GROS 505/00 0010 0018. You are right that there appear to be no other birth registrations for children of John and Catherine McIntyre however i have found the following death registrations for 3 other children.

1867 Ardnamurchan Ann Livingston(aged 74 b 1793) parents John Livingston and Catherine McIntyre
1882 Ardnamurchan John Livingston(aged 86 b 1796) parents John Livingston and Catherine McIntyre
1877 Ardnamurchan Donald Livingston(aged 78 b 1799) parents John Livingston and Catherine McIntyre

As you can see opens up a number of questions. Where were John Livingston and Katherine McIntyre married and where were these 3 born ? Is the gap between these 3 and Duncan approximately 7 years because John was away fighting in the Napoleonic wars ?

As for Allan my great great grandfather, he was living at Orsaigmore in 1841 close to Kilchoan. Later censuses show his birth as follows

1851 Ardnammurchan, Argyle
1861 Killmally, Argyllshire
1871 Argyllshire
1881 Kilchonan Argyllshire
1891 Kilmalley Argyllshire
1901 Traisley Argyllshire

I know Duncan and Mary McMillan were married in 1825 and were working as servants at Inversanda. Allan was their first born probably around circa 1827. The 1841 census said Allan was 12 but it said his brother Archibald was 10 and I know his birth was 9th November 1829 so Allan must have been earlier. It is clear Allan was born in Argyllshire and I wonder if he was born at Kilmalieu which is the next village along Loch Linnhe from Inversanda ?

Duncans children were born as follows, all records found in Scotlands people

Archibald Coiremhulin Ardnamurchan 9th Nov 1829
Margaret Corrievulin Ardnamurchan 12th April 1832
Mary Skinnid, Arnamurchan 19th May 1834
Margery Skinnid, Ardnamurchan 11th April 1836
Catherine Orsaigmore , Ardnamurchan 9th Feb 1839
Mary Orsaigmore Ardnamurchan 19th Dec 1841
Anne Glening Acharacle 14th May 1845
Christian Trislaig , Kilmallie 01Jan 1850

Like Allan there was an Anne in the 1841 census born about 1837 but I can find no birth record and assume she died young. Until Duncan went to Trislaig as a crofter he was shown on all the birth records as a Shepherd. This fits with him being one of the lucky ones in Ardnamurchan who were employed by the Ridells whilst the crofts were being cleared along the Arnamuchan coast near Kilchoan. Again I wondered whether the Riddle family had property at Inversanda and whether Duncan as an existing servant was offered the job as a shepherd ? Do you know of any records that might help me with this ? The big gaps in my story are what was happening with John Livingston and his family between 1800 and 1841. Are there any records you are aware of that might help me as I appear to have exhausted Scotlands people and ancestry .com.

The other thing that would help would be if i could trace Mary's( Duncans daughter) husbands family. She married a Donald Livingston ( her second cousin) on 5th June 1874 in Govan Glasgow. His parents were a Donald Livingston and Janet Cameron who married in 1832 at Acharacle he was residing at Biaphollain( can't fully read the inscription but the last part is correct any ideas where this place is ?) and she from Acharacle where the wedding took place.As Donald and Mary are second cousins it indicates that Donalds Grandfather and Duncans father John Livingston were brothers ?

Kind Regards


Malcolm

Hi Malcolm,

I am out of reach of a good internet reception where I am holidaying this week so I don't really have dependable internet service so wont be able to look into your inquiries till i get back home. Yes it was from Scotlands people as you say. This this family research things does has it challenges. From the Scottish records all that I have regarding my great-great-great grandfather is his marriage record where the minister states he and his wife also a Livingston were "natives of Morvain (Morvern, Argyllshire who left for America (British North AMerica) in june of 1812. Much more info than you usually get from a Church of Scotland marriage record in any event as the marriage actually took place or at least was registered in Kilarrow Parish in the Isle of Islay. THe subsequent records in British North America gave me 1775 for a birth date and other colony info including an actual book written later in 1819 by a Doctor who was aboard the Robert Taylor the ship that my ancestor and his wife and other relatives took to come to British North America gives some interesting details of the voyage. Colony records are also well detailed. It just the Scottish records regarding my ancestor's family that is a problem as there are no Morvern Parish birth records surviving prior to 1803 or 1804. There is a record on neighbouring Isle of Lismore for a MYles Livingston baptised in the 1775 which could be my ancestor, but his own information from his 1812 marriage record states that he was born on the neighbouring mainland of Morvern Parish. So I guess it is just luck and which parish in Argyll your ancestor was born in that determines just what parish records are available for your research. Some parish records in Argyll begin as far back as the 1750's and a few earlier. SOme however not until the early 1800's. It may be that your ancestor is connected to some of the other old Ardnamurchan Livingston families.

That is correct Mary Livingston an Aunt of Dr. Livingstone did mary a Laurie. I saw also somewhere that John livingston married also a laurie but as I have not seen some sort of evidence to support it i would not be able to confirm that unfortunately. To be honest as we don't really have any documented information regarding John Livingston son of Neil Livingston Sr. and his wife Mary Morrison appart from his Kilninian Parish, Mull birth record, I really don't know who his wife was for certain or if having been married who if any children he had or their names. So I am not much help on that. The Clan Maclea Livingstone Society has a DNA project with familytreedna utilizing their Y chromosome test and any Livingstones or Livingstons who are wondering about an ancestral connection to Dr. Livingstone's family might consider taking their 67 or 111 marker Y chromosome test which tests male Livingstones or livingston who all have the Y chromosome. This test will tell you for certain whether your Livingston ancestors were related distantly or more closely related to Dr. Livingstone's Livingstone relatives or not related at all. It won't tell you which relative or branch of Dr. Livingstone's family you are connected to but it will tell you whether you could be related distantly or more closely with Dr. Livingstone's Livingstone ancestors and kin. I would suspect you are likely ancestrally connected to families of nearby Morvern and Mull Livingstons who have been already tested but a test would confirm whether or not is likely to be the case. As far as I know we have not as yet had a descendant of an Ardnamurchan Livingston tested unfortunately, so it would be helpful to have one as Livingstons with ancestry linked to other parts of Western Argyllshire have been tested.

Yes it could be John was a soldier during that War. No one as yet as taken on that project to locate all the Livingstons from that period in the Chelsea Pension files. There were some Livingstons which served during the Napoleonic wars from Argyllshire to be sure. Charles son of Neil LIvingston Sr. and Mary Morrison served with the Navy and died in 1815 but I have not seen any records for that just that is the apparently a Livingstone family account that is mentioned in some 19th century books on David Livingstone. I dont have any details of the military service of the other brothers and Dr. Livingstone's grandson Hubert Livingstone WIlson stated they he thought all the brothers died in the War. And that is interestingly all he says about them in his book. Dr. Livingstone in his book from the 1850's mentions they all served in the military but does not state what became of them. I believe that one son of Neil Livingston and Mary Morrison, Donald Livingston served in an Argyll regiment during the early 1800's and his children worked in Blantyre at the mill as did the children of the other son Neil Jr. who was Doctor Livingstone's father, but none of them has any known connection to Ardnamurchan Livingstons.


regards,

Donald

Hi Donald

Thanks for your reply but please enjoy the rest of your holiday before getting back to me again.

I'd really like to understand what you are searching on to get Duncan Livingstones death ? I can't bring it up at all on Scotlands People ? Very strange.

I'd love to get involved with the DNA project perhaps you could let me know what I have to do ?

Kind Regards

Malcolm

Hi Cameron,

I can't access the info pertaining to John Livingston from Scotlands People until I get home unfortunately.

Our Clan Maclea Livingstone DNA project works with familytreedna as mentioned and they are involved in the testing. It is a male Y chromosome test paternal ancestry which would mean you or another male Livingston in your family or a closely related cousin would do the test. I would advise either the 67 or 111 marker test. Most of the highland Argyllshire Livingstons tested that I am doing genealogical research that have done a dna test with famiytreedna have opted for the 67 marker test and some have upgraded and done a 111 marker test. The 67 marker test is somewhat cheaper than the 111 marker test and in should tell you which Livingstons you most closely match with. The 67 marker test is $259.00 and the 111 marker test which tests even more markers is a bit pricey at $368.00 U.S dollars. If you go to the bottom of page of this familytreedna link I am including you will the see "Comparing Y Chromosome tests with options to order 37, 67 or 111 markers and you can if you are interested order one of those tests directly from there. Many families doing their family research are utilizing familytreedna and it should be helpful to determine which old Livingstone family group in Scotland your own Livingston family most closely matches and importantly to you give some indication whether or not there is a possibility you could be ancestrally connected to Dr. Livingstone's Uncle as you are wondering. A number of Livingstons have started with the 67 marker test and then upgraded to the 111 marker test which is also a good option. If you go with a test familytreedna will send you an easy to work with test kit with instructions.

Here is the familytreedna link for the 67 and 111 marker test if you are interested.

https://www.familytreedna.com/y-dna-compare.aspx


regards,

Donald (Livingstone) Clink
Historian
Clan Maclea Livingstone Society

Hi Cameron,
I took a close look at a list of those who were a match to one our Livingston groups in the DNA project.
One of our Western Argyll Livingston groups identified from the DNA testing in our DNA project has I noticed one Australian Livingston that was tested several years ago who is a descendant of Hugh Livingston and Catharine McDiarmid who in the 1830's and 1840's at Glenmoire and subsequently Swordley Chorrack both in Ardnamurchan, Argyll He did the 67 marker test. IT IS TOO early to be 100 percent certain but it looks like other Ardnamurchan Livingstons to be tested in the future might also be close match to a Glenmoire/Swordley Chorrack Ardnamurchan Livingstons who are in this western argyll group matching relatively closely with descendants of nearby Morvern and Mull Livingstons in Argyllshire.The marker results of this Ardnamurchan descended Livingston and others of Mull of Morvern Livingston family origin in this test group indicate they are not related to Dr. Livingstone's family.

It looks like there was an old family of Livingstons at Glenmoire in the early 1800's which this Hugh Livingston who also lived at Glenmoire and later Swordley Chorrack was probably connected to. I think if you took the 67 marker DNA test it would not only help to resolve the Dr. Livingstone question but would also indicate whether or not your Ardnamurchan Livingston family of Kilchoan and Orsaigmore was any relation to the old Glenmoire, Ardnamurchan Livingston family. Your participation in the Clan Society DNA project would clearly answer both these questions I am certain.

regards,

Donald

Hi Donald

Can I clarify, am I a legitimate candidate for this DNA project. My Grandmother was a Livingstone and on my paternal side. Does the fact however that the chain is not 100 per cent male prevent my useful involvement in this process ?

Kind Regards

Malcolm

Malcolm,

To be a valid participant, you need to be a male with one of the last names listed on the clan DNA site. If your last name is not on the list, I would suggest that you get a relative with a correct last name to take the test.