Livingstones of Reudle, Isle of Mull

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Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2701
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Livingstones of Reudle, Isle of Mull

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Jane,
Thanks for pointing out to me. So many postings in the past it is hard to remember them all. Thank you so much for that.
I am including below a link to the familytreedna Livingston group listing an example of the variety of Livingston test results based on the results of some Livingstone and others that whose results were organized and grouped. It does not of course all those who are matching in each of these match groups necessarily. Your brother is not a part of this particular familytreedna discussion group and that is why his results were not posted probably here. I think you probably have to be a member of that discussion group or something like that. But you can in this list of match groups the one Scots R1b your brother would be in. You can also see some of those in the Bachuil Livingstone group, the Parker Livingstone which my Livingston cousin is in and the Dr. Livingstone match group as many others identified Y DNA match groups most of include Livingstons and other matching families not named Livingston.

Included I see a group Scots R1b you are referring to which I assume has DNA marker results similar to yours. Some of those on this list are Livingstons many of whom have a lowland Livingston roots and are not connected to the Bachuil Livingstones or to the other Western Argyllshire Livingstones that are of known Maclea Livingstone clan origin. A third match group connected with Dr. Livingstone's ancestors who resided in Southern Argyllshire and a few in Mull in the 1700's I have also studied, but your Livingston family is one of the first that I come across which does not match with either the Bachuil Livingstone Match group, The Parker Livingstone (Mull/Morvern) Group or the Dr. Livingstone DNA match group. Your brothers results and your definite family history in Reudle, Mull but not matching the three most well known Y DNA match groups for Livingstons of 18th and 19th century origin I think indicates that your family although not matching with the Dr. Livingstone match group like these Livingstons of 18th century Southern Argyllshire and Mull likely were among those Livingston families not related the native Argyllshire Maclea Livignstones who arrived in Argyllshire in the 1600's with those South western lowland Livingston families that chose to settle in the early 1600's not in nearby Ulster, Ireland but on Isle of Islay in Southern Argyll. Some of these families later made their way before the early 1700's north to Mull and lived in close proximity with my own Maclea (Mconlea) ancestors who later with the rest of the Argyllshire adopted the name Livingstone also spelt Livingston. It is not a well known fact but it seems that a few families of Lowland Livingstons from South western Scotland some apparently not related some related to DR. Livingstones ancestral group as others such as your family settled likely in the early 1600's in both Southern Argyllshire such as Isle of Islay and also in County Down and Antrim, Ireland during what is known in Ireland. A study of the matches in the Dr. Livingstone Match group shows a number of matches with both Islay southern Argylll Livingstons and sure enough a number of Livington families claiming 17th century Ulster Ireland lowland Scottish presbyterian Livingston origins. It should be noted that with the R1b match group which also includes Livingstons some of them are definitely not of ancestors of lived who highland Argyllshire like your family did. Some I think are actually of Lowland Livingston origin and some may have settled in Ulster Ireland orginally living in lowland Scotland. The links possibly with some Macleays of Ross and Cromarty origin now being studied I do not think links them to the Maclea Livingstones connected to both the ancestors of those in the Bachuil Livingstone match group and those of Mull and Morvern Maclea Livingstone descent matching with a match known as the Parker Livingstone group. I have said in the past that I really don't see that the Y DNA results of any of the Ross and Cromarty Macleays so far are closely matching with those tested in the Bachuil Livingstone Y DNA match and the other Maclea Livingstone most common Y DNA match the Parker Livingstone Group most Livingstons of 18th and 19th century Western Argyllshire origin.

I think we have found the three main matching group amongst the descendants of Livingstons who are known from the records of those Livingstons who resided in 18th and 19th century and they seem to be the Bachuil Maclea Livingstone Match group, The Parker Livingstone Maclea Livingston match group and the Dr. Livingstone Match group. Almost all with one or two exceptions in the last 15 years that I was aware matched with these 3 DNA match group. That being said I never ruled the possibility for some reason that other Livingston with family record linking them to 18th and 19th century Livingston family residing in Western Argyll like Mull in your families case come come up in the future. There was a definite pattern with Livingstons tested of Western Argyllshire origins to match primarily with the three groups I mentioned but i knew sooner or later we would get a Livingston such as your brother who had records also confirming Mull, Argyllshire ancestry that would not be a match with the three primary Argyllshire LIivngton match groups. The reason clearly that your brother does match with the Bachuil Livingstones, Parker LIvingstones largely of Mull and Morvern and other western Argyllshire origins and the Dr. Livingstone group is that your Livingston family although also residing in Western Argyllshire in the 18th and 19th century are not related to any of these Livington match groups but likely in my opinion share with the Dr. LIvingstone group the likelihood that they were part of the lowland presbyterian scot migration into both Ulster Ireland and the little known settlement in the 16th century into neighbouring Isle of Islay and Southern Argyllshire. Some of these lowland Livingstons that ended up in the ISLe of Islay Southern Argyllshire in the 16th century rather than settling in nearby County Down, Ulster Ireland as many lowland settlers did at that time, some of them I have found evidence of ended up migrating to Mull by the early 1700's. In the early 1700's records for Mull while the Maclea LIvingstones still refer to themselves as Maclea or the more gaelic Mconlea a few of their neighbours go by the lowland name "Livingstoun" years before that name became fully adopted by highland Macleas. Prior to that Livingston was a family name of an aristocrat family in lowland Stirlingshire, though by the 1600's and probably before that a number of lowland families of more common origins apparently adopted the name of the prominent aristocratic Scottish family as their own.

Your brother's results clearly show that his match group consists of other Livingston families so it is definitely a match group with Livingstons but I think more research needs to done as 18th and 19th and earlier origins of the other Livingstons matching with this group which you brother match with. I unfortunately have not been in communication with any the Livingstons matching with group and only with gentleman who believes he is of Macleay ancestry matching with this group from Holland. I think perhaps if we were able to contact some of your brothers matching we could confirm whether any of them are of documented Argyllshire or Ulster Ireland ancestry or lowland ancestry. Some of those may be difficult to contact however, but if would be worth at try. My hunch is that a number of them are of lowland origin who Livingston ancestors later settled to Ulster Ireland or Argyllshire or whose ancestors remained in lowland Scotland. Some invariably may not know where in the British Isles their ancestors resided in the 1700's as no family records survive, but it would interesting to find out what they know as there a good number of Livingstons in that R1b group which your brother also matches with as you have pointed out.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/li ... n=yresults

regards,

Donald
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2701
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Livingstones of Reudle, Isle of Mull

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi jane,
Can you check with your brother and make note of the ancestral origins of his Livingston Y DNA matches and see you see Ireland or County Monaghan Ireland etc. I am looking to see if any indicate they are descended from the Livingstons who settled in Ulster Ireland in the north back in the 1600's. Also it would be useful to make note of which ones are his closest matches and how many Livingston matches he has so far. Some lowland Livingston families migrated into Southern Argyllshire rather than settling in nearby Ulster, Ireland. I notice on the R1b list I sent you that a couple of Livingston on that list indicated some Ulster Ireland ancestry. There could be more. Others may not know where their ancestors resided in the 1700's or 1800's in the British Isles something not uncommon with some Livingston families where no ancestral records survived. But I think worth a try to somehow determine the ancestral origins of those Livingstons matching with your group.

regards,

Donald (Livingstone) Clink
Clan Historian
Clan Maclea Livingstone Society
Jane M Livingstone
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:57 am

Re: Livingstones of Reudle, Isle of Mull

Post by Jane M Livingstone »

Hi Donald

I looked on the ancestral origins on family tree DNA. At 25 markers, there are two exact matches - one from Scotland and one from Ireland. At 67 markers, at a genetic distance of 5, there is one from Scotland. If this is not what I'm supposed to be looking at, please let me know.

I have found an old email from Andrew Lancaster saying that he'd found a new dna match to my brother. A Livingstone family that changed their name from MacLea late in the 19th century. They were in the Ross-shire family of MacLeas.

With respect to the lowland Livingstones, there has never been a mention of them in our family. Keep in mind that the family members who put this information on paper were born in the 1870s and lived as (admittedly young) children with their grandfather who was born in 1802. So a lot of the family history is not as far removed from current knowledge as many other families may be.

Another interesting snippet is that my grandfather always talked about the Livingstone cemetery at Morvern as though we had some claim to it, but you are saying we are not related to those Livingstones. I can only assume that in his mind we were all Livingstones.

Regards, Jane
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2701
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Livingstones of Reudle, Isle of Mull

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Jane,

As the Clan Society Historian one of my primary responsibilites I think is to achieve a better understanding of the origins of those Livingstones/Livingstons that resided in Argyllshire and assist Livingstones with their genealogy inquiries. When I first became acquainted with our Clan Chief Baron Niall Livingstone and other Livingston related clan members via the Clan Macleays Livingstone Forum and Web Site more than 15 years ago now, we did not have the knowledge gained from the Y DNA test and now in some cases SNP testing of Livingstones Worldwide including those who Livingston ancestors according to parish and census records and family info resided in the parishes of Argyllshire in the 18th and 19th century and before that. Now in 2020 a significant number of Livingstons have been tested and it is clear that while some Livingstons share a common paternal ancestral, there are some that do not.

But with new information came the challenge of how to interpret and explain it and then how to prove and convince others that we were wrong about some earlier assumptions regarding the Livingstons of Western Argyllshire and Livingstons in general. Here in a nutshell is the situation I am faced with.
Back in the beginning it was thought all Livingstons were somehow connected to the Maclea-Livingstones and while there had a old family group of Livingstons connected to the aristocratic Calendar Livingstons of Stirlingshire these Livingstons had pretty much died out and most Livingstons in the later records after the 1700's were actually Maclea Livingstons of Western Argyllshire who had in the 1700's settled in Lowland Counties of Scotland seeking work. In many cases that was true but I have found it is that for example in South Western Scotland in Ayrshire there were a number families commoners whose ancestors adopted the name Livingston who were not likely related to the highland Maclea Livingstons. i don't know that any familytreedna tests have been done of lIvingstons of Lowland Livingstons whose ancestor resided more recently in the 18th and 19th century but I am hoping that will eventually happen. More on the possible significance of Ayrshire, Scotland Livingstons.

For more than 15 years I have been in contact or in touch with numerous Livingstons through their genealogy research who had info like as being of Western Argyllshire ancestry. Many had family info or access to old parish and census records like yourself linking their Livingstone families to Livingston ancestors who resided in 18th century and 19th century Scotland. Some of these Livingstons had done the YDNA test with family treedna and I had a Livingston cousin who was Morvern Livingston ancestry also do the Y DNA test. I also encouraged those who had not done the test to consider doing it. What I found remarkable while working with them was that most of Livingstones of Western Argyllshire ancestry were matching with one DNA match group in particular as was my Livingston cousin. Based on the the genealogy info and Scottish record what these Livingstons that matched with a group that was called the Parker Livingston Match group was that they all had for the most part a Clan Maclea Livingstone family that had been tenants in Mull, neighbouring Morvern, Ardnmurchan etc. in Western Argyllshire. Two of three Livingstons lived in Perthshire in the late 1700's and early 1800's but given that I aware that some Argyllshire families had migrated into neighbouring County of Perthshire ad the fact that shared similar Y DNA marker results with those Maclea Livingstones of Western Argyll ancestry I thought it was pretty certain these 2 or three Livingstons with a history in Perthshire were originally also of Western Argyllshire Maclea Livingstone ancestry. As I said almost every Livingston of Western Argyllshire ancestry who I enouraged to do the Y DNA matched with these clearly predominate Maclea Livingstone Western Argyllshire Livingston Y DNA match group.

But the Y DNA testing over the past 15 years revealed two other principal Argyllshire Livingston Y DNA match groups. The Y DNA tests revealed that a second Y DNA match group with other Livingstons of known and documented Clan Maclea Livingstone ancestry also matched with This includes Livingstons also of Western Argyllshire origins related to the old Bachuil Livingstone family of Lismore connected ancestrally to the Barons of Bachuil. This we refer to as the Bachuil Livingstone Y DNA match group. Some Livingstons of neighbouring Appin nearby to Lismore have also matched with this group.

One other prominent Y DNA Match group in the last 15 years of Y DNA testing with family tree other Livingstons of known and documented family origins in the County of Argyllshire. Around 2006 i had a proven descendant of Dr. Livingstone's eldest brother tested with familytree Y DNA and to my surprise an interesting third Y DNA match group emerged with some Livingstons matching the relative of Dr. Livingstone most interestingly of Islay, Argyllshire and in an odd twist also a Livingston family who had no Argyllshire connection whatsoever and were from an old Livingston family that before settled in Georgia in the early 1700's were of Livingston family that had settled in County Down Ulster Ireland probably in the 1600's with other lowland Presbyterian Scot families probably of South Western Scotland possibly Ayrshire where we now a number of Livingstons who settled in Ulster Ireland in the 1600's. These people were referred to in America and Canada as being Scotch Irish. So then I tried to figure out why some of these Livingston matches with third match group were of Islay, Argyll origin and of Lowland Livigntons who had settled in County Down in the 1600's. Then I put two and two together with the knowledge that in the early 1600's lowland scottish familes from Dumbartonshire and Ayrshire who did not settle in Ulster Ireland had the opportunity to be tenants of the Campbell family in nearby Southern Islay, Argyll and thus remain in Scotland. I am trying to get more info on these lowland settlers settling Islay, Argyll in the early 1600's but when these Livingstons from the US and Canada of Islay Argyll origin I was at one point in contact with were tested sure enough they matched not with the largest Parker Livingston Maclea Livingstone match group or the Bachuil Livingstone Maclea Livingstone Y DNA match group but with the Dr. Livingstone Y DNA match group. So the big revelation to me in the test results with this group is the possibility that the Islay Livingstons could be descended not from Maclea Livingstones but from a family of lowland Ayrshire Scots named Livingtons who settled in the early 1600's in Islay. In later year long after the Highland Argyllshire Macleays had change their name Livingstone/Livingston it was assumed that all Livingston shared the same blood line and were of one family origin. The remarkable thing about the YDNA testing whether one accepts what I am saying is that the testing of known Livingstons who's ancestor lived in the 18th and 19th century or earler in parishes of Argyllshire proves that not all Livingstons of Argyllshire were in fact related. That I think is significant.

Now I was expecting that some Livingstones/Livingstons would not be a match with one of these above mentioned three apparently principal Argyllshire Livingston Y DNA Match groups with the familytreedna Y DNA testing So I know of one or two others in addition to yourself so far in the last 15 years in contact with me of known Argyllshire Livingston origins that did not match any of these three Y DNA Match group. You I guess would be the third. You are the first that has contacted me of Mull, Argyllshire ancestry that matched with the that R1b Y DNA match Group. I am somewhat familiar with that group having had some discussion about it and as result of your inquiries and others in the more recent past I have decided to focus my attention more to a better understanding of the family history and origins of the Livingstons in that group that I am familiar with. I have always felt comfortable working with both family history and the Y DNA results and both can prove to be helpful in a better understanding of the origins of a Livingston. And there does seem to be lot of Livingstons out there with a variety of origins beyond Argyllshire that unfortunately whose origins are not really known and who show up in the test results with an interesting variety of Y DNA results, which does present some challenges to LIvingstons researchers like myself to explain. But for now I would like focus on this R1B DNA match group with Livingstons and Macleays and Mckinleys which you are matching with. So far the only new insight is some of the Livingstons are or may be 'Scotch Irish" Livingstons not unlike the group I found matching with the Dr. David Livingstone for some reason. So it would be interesting to see how many Livingstons in your group claim to be of Scotch Irish who settled in Pennsylvania and the southern States in the 1700's.

One has to realize that most Livingstons don't know of their ancestral origins before the 1800's or 1700's at the latest. So I suspect most Livingston who i have worked with on their genealogy in the last 15 years have no information about their family prior to the 1700's or 1800's and where they lived in Scotland prior to then. So I am not surprised that you and many others don't have knowledge before that. Very few Livingstons have that information so it does present challenges to me if I suspect any Livingstones of an 16th century lowland ancestry.

regards,

Donald
Jane M Livingstone
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:57 am

Re: Livingstones of Reudle, Isle of Mull

Post by Jane M Livingstone »

Hi Donald

Thanks again for the work you do on this.

So the facts are:
1. Our family don't match to the three main Livingstone groups.
2. My brother's dna results are inconclusive but with a possible match to a Macleay from Ross-shire.

I think all I can do now is:
- start looking at broader relationships, siblings of great grandparents etc to get as much information as I can
- do some work on the maternal lines to see if there are place connections

It looks more and more likely that I'll never get to the bottom of the story. I don't know enough about the dna, but do you think getting more markers done will help? I was also thinking I could get my Dad's dna done instead of brother's but he's in Scotland and we can't get there for another couple of years at this rate.

Regards, Jane
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2701
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Livingstones of Reudle, Isle of Mull

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Jane,

It is true that your brother is not a match with those three predominate DNA match groups associated with Livingstons with known 18th and 19th century Argyllshire Livingston ancestors, but as you can see with Livingstons that resided in the Argyllshire in the 18th and 19th century and before it important for us to take into account and be aware of any "other" Argyllshire Livingston that have different Livingston family origins than these three main ones and may be matching then with another Y DNA match group. I think it important to this study of Argyllshire Livingstons who are known to resided in Argyllshire in the 18th and 19th centuries to be aware of Livingstons like your brother who aren't matching with the main three familytreedna Y DNA match I have mentioned. While I have been in touch mostly over the last 15 years and am very famliiar with the family histories of many of the Livingstons in the three groups I have mentioned, I think it important for me to learn what I can about the family history and DNA results of any Livingstons not matching with those three Y DNA match groups I am most familiar with of known Argyllshire Livingston ancestry. I did my own quick study of the records associated with your Reudle Livingstons and your research regarding the family connected to a John Livingston of Reudle, Kilninian Mull is entirely credible and backed by surviving Scottish parish and census information pertinent to your Livingston family line.

I also have been in discussion with a gentleman who has been doing his research on this Macleay, McKinley and Livingston R1b group, and I with this renewed interest in this group I am starting also to take a much closer look at this group. I think there has been some thought over the years that this group is linked ancestrally and historically to our Argyllshire Clan Maclea Livingstone, but I not so certain about that. I could a getter better sense of things with a basic Y DNA marker by marker comparison at for example with 67 markers tested of all the Livingstons and Macleays matching with this group. There have been suggestions that advanced SNP testing in addition to the Y DNA testing would further clarify the genetics of this group. SNP test can be a bit pricey but familytreedn does have sales. To be most effective one would a number of Ross and Cromarty matching I assume with this Y DNA match group according to their DNA testing and some of a number of Livingstons matching with this Y DNA group to also do the SNP test to determine if they share similar SNP results. For starters a comparison of 67 markers of Y DNA testing of these Macleays and Livingstons and your brother's results at 67 markers would I think make sense.

Making note of your closest Livingston matches and most distant Livingston matches with your brother familytreedna test info would be very helpful. That listed on the DNA match page of your brother's in a genetic distance number. So at 67 markers tested it would be explained as a Livingston or Macleay match as being a genetic distance of 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, or 7 for example with 67 markers tests. The higher the genetic distance the more distantly related the match is with your brother. Something important bear in mind when looking at his Y DNA test results.

Scottish families migrated over the centuries in Scotland. In the 16th century lowland Scots many of them from South Western Scotland from Ayrshire, and neighbouring Dunbartonshire etc. were encouraged to Ulster in the north of Ireland in the early 1600's in what historically was referred to as the Plantation Period. A number Livingston familes from Southwestern Scotland, some possibly from Ayrshire settled in the early 1600's in Ulster in places such as County Down. Some Livingston families not all sharing the same blood line who had settled in Ulster Ireland later are known to have settled in Pennsylvania, and the the then colonies in the South, in the early to mid 1700's. Some also later settled in Canada. In the United States and Canada they are referred to as being "Scotch Irish". Unfortunately not much discussion amongst our Clan as taken place regarding the orgins and significance of Livingstons of Scotch Irish origin. I have however been in touch with a few Livingstons of Scotch Irish ancestry in over last few years and hope to do more so in the future.

As mentioned while a number of these Livingston families during this 17th century period of South western lowland Scot origins settled in Ireland, a few Livingstons of this migratory group at this time in the early 1600's seem to have settled for example in Kldalton Parish in the Isle of Islay, ArgyllLivingston and it seems likely that some of these same Livingstons later migrated farther north to Mull, Argyll. DNA testing I think suggests this likely happened at this time.

regards,

Donald
Jane M Livingstone
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:57 am

Re: Livingstones of Reudle, Isle of Mull

Post by Jane M Livingstone »

Hi Donald

I just did a reply and it didn't post so hope this doesn't post twice.

I've been on ftdna and put in our oldest known ancestor as John because I cannot verify the previous two. I put his birth date as abt 1755 because that's what Mull Genealogy had.

I've checked the SNP tests and I cannot work out the costs.

I'll have another look at the dna matches and see if anything is useful.

Thanks for your help once again.

Wishing you a Merry Christmas,
regards, Jane
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2701
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Livingstones of Reudle, Isle of Mull

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Jane,

Challenging and difficult times at Christmas these days for many families, but here's hoping you and your family have a Merry Christmas.

I have been starting to look over the info and try and make sense of the Livingstons listed in that particular R1B grouping in that YDNA chart which includes your brother. Got to make my Christmas spice cake tomorrow and get organized for Christmas, so hopefully more about this R1b group and your Livingston genealogy in the new year.

regards,

Donald
George Macdonald
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2017 8:00 pm

Re: Livingstones of Reudle, Isle of Mull

Post by George Macdonald »

Hello Jane,
I have been reading your correspondence with Donald and just wish to add a couple of comments which I hope might be of help.
The participants you match with in the Scots R1b group all exhibit a 13 at marker Gata H4. This is not a common reading at this marker as nearly all the participants who feature in this area of the genetic tree display either a 12 or an 11 at this position and three of the five participants in the Scots R1b group that carry this 13 have already undertaken a BigY-700 test which has revealed that they share the following progression of snps.
L1335>L1065>Z16325>S744>S764>S756>A6099
The terminal snp named A6099 takes us to approximately 1500AD and it is thought that these three individuals are likely to share an ancestor about that date. However dating at this stage is still imprecise and it is possible that A6099 is older than that date.
At this current point in time my thinking about this line of snps is that it most likely represents the descendants of the MacLeays of Strathconon, Ross-shire, who are thought to have migrated from Appin to Ross-shire at some point in the 14th century. If the snp A6099 is older than 1500AD then it is possible that your ancestors represent a remnant of that line that remained in Argyllshire or alternatively one of your ancestors was originally a Ross-shire MacLeay that found his way down to Argyllshire.
Looking at your brother's STR result it is very likely that he too will follow this line of snps but one can never be sure because of what they call convergence which is when by pure chance someone who is really very distantly related ends up with a similar reading to your own family's result.
Ultimately the only way of finding out your family's line of snps is to put your brother's sample forward for a BigY-700 test as this will not only confirm if he follows the above line but will also reveal all the other snps he possesses and as future matches for these snps come to light will extend your line nearer to the present century.
However, the bigY-700 is rather expensive and a cheaper option would be to get FTDNA to test your brother's sample to see if he tests positive for S764, S756 and A6099. I would not normally recommend this course of action as it is very hit and miss and usually you find that people who do this end up taking a bigY-700 test anyway as they eventually want to find out all the snps that are exclusive to them so that they can gain greater insight to their results as more people take a DNA test and future matches come to light. However, because you exhibit a 13 at GataH4 I think there is an enhanced chance that you might follow this line.
I hope the above is of some help.
George H Macdonald
Jane M Livingstone
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:57 am

Re: Livingstones of Reudle, Isle of Mull

Post by Jane M Livingstone »

Hi George

Thanks heaps for the info. I'll look into the tests.

Regards, Jane
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