Livingstones of Reudle, Isle of Mull

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Jane M Livingstone
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:57 am

Livingstones of Reudle, Isle of Mull

Post by Jane M Livingstone »

I have seen a few posts about the Livingstones of Reudle so thought I should share my ancestry information.

Donald Livingstone (grandfather) b 1887 Churchyard St, Tobermory (They moved to Glasgow when he was 6. This was a gaelic speaking family. GF did not speak English when he started school in Glasgow).

Donald Livingstone (g gf) b 1846 in Reudle, d 1925 Glasgow.
Went to Glasgow, became a joiner, Married Jane McIntyre (1845-1938) in 1872 in Glasgow. She was from Ballachulish (parents Duncan, mason, and Mary Campbell). Went to Ballachulish after marriage (John was born there). Later returned to Mull and set up a butcher's shop and dairy in Tobermory.
Children:
Elizabeth b.1872
John b.1874
Duncan b.1877
Alexander b.1879
Mary b. 1881
Neil b.1885
Donald b. 1887 (gf)

Alexander b.1802 Reudle (gg gf) d. 1886 Reudle (gravestone in Kilninion church) married Elizabeth McLean. He was a dairy farmer.
Children:
Donald b.1846 (g gf)
John b.1845, died 1865
Mary b.1847
(possibly a Flory and an Isabella as well??)

John Livingstone (ggg gf) m Flora MacLean in 1796 at Reudle
Children:
John b.1799 died young
Mary b.?
Alexander b.1802 (gg gf)
Catherine b. 1804
Elizather b.l1806
John b.1812
Duncan b.1816
Hugh (strange name for our family so not sure about this one)

Further back than this gets tricky and I cannot confirm any of the information that I have. So according to information from family:

John's father was a Donald (gggg gf) who married a Mary McKinnon. Donald died young and the family was raised by MacLucas through whom they were settled in Reudle.

Donald's father was a Duncan (ggggg gf) who married a daughter of McLean of Coll around 1773. This Duncan was supposedly at Culloden.

The heading on the family tree that I have that was compiled by my great uncle Duncan is 'The Livingstones from Appin'. I can find no information whatsoever about this daughter of McLean of Coll (nothing substantiates this information from the McLean side of things). The information that I have says that they left Coll, having married against McLean's wishes and went to Mull under the protection of the McLeans of Torloisk, and were given the mill at Penmore.

I have the following information from an old letter explaining our relationship to Dr David but as it is not a direct relationship, no relationship would show up in the DNA:
"David Livingstone was descended from a son of the baron of Bachuil who was wounded at Culloden...... young MacDhunleibhe did not deem LIsmore too safe and went to Morvern then Mull and finally to Ulva. His son married Catherine MacDhunleibhe whose father was farming in Kerrara. Catherine's father was of the Achnacree family and was at Culloden also. And my information from the Duke of Argyll is that we are descended from Catherine's uncle who settled in Mull after Culloden and whose son married a sister of the young laird of Coll who befriended Johnson and Boswell..."

The connection to the McLeans of Coll is confusing and I wonder if someone has inferred something incorrectly at some stage.
Greg Livingston
Posts: 301
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2009 11:42 pm
Location: Northglenn, CO, USA

Re: Livingstones of Reudle, Isle of Mull

Post by Greg Livingston »

Jane M Livingstone wrote:
I have the following information from an old letter explaining our relationship to Dr David but as it is not a direct relationship, no relationship would show up in the DNA:
"David Livingstone was descended from a son of the baron of Bachuil who was wounded at Culloden...... young MacDhunleibhe did not deem LIsmore too safe and went to Morvern then Mull and finally to Ulva. His son married Catherine MacDhunleibhe whose father was farming in Kerrara. Catherine's father was of the Achnacree family and was at Culloden also. And my information from the Duke of Argyll is that we are descended from Catherine's uncle who settled in Mull after Culloden and whose son married a sister of the young laird of Coll who befriended Johnson and Boswell..."

The connection to the McLeans of Coll is confusing and I wonder if someone has inferred something incorrectly at some stage.
Jane,
If you have a male Livingston(e) relative, please do have them join our DNA project. We do have a documented Livingston(e) in the project that is descended from Dr David's Uncle (I believe). There has been a story in my family that we are related to the good Dr and also to the Livingstons of New York. I did the DNA test for the project and I am distantly related to him. Don't ask me how far back but definitely 10 or more generations back. Who knows, maybe we are more closely related to each other than to Dr. David. ;) If so, it could fill in some blanks I have. The furthest back I can go is my GGGG Grandfather James David Livingston born in 1786. I don't know where or who his parents are. I do know that he was in the Pennsylvania militia and died in the War of 1812.

My understanding is that Dr David Livingstone's line and our Chief's line are different. I will let either Andrew or Donald answer on that since they have studied those two lines.
Greg Livingston
Clan Commissioner
Northglenn, Colorado, USA
Jane M Livingstone
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:57 am

Re: Livingstones of Reudle, Isle of Mull

Post by Jane M Livingstone »

My brother did the DNA test some years back (21629). We aren't related to Dr David except, as I stated, possibly by marriage. Am I incorrect in saying that this relationship wouldn't show up in the dna? If the relationship would show in the DNA, then the story is incorrect.
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2704
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Livingstones of Reudle, Isle of Mull

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Jane,
Your brother did a Y chromosome test with familytreedna I am assuming. If so your best bet is to check his closest Livingston matches within his particular Y DNA match group. You won't find a link to Dr. LIvingstone, but may be able to determine now or in the future when other matches occur what their early Livingston family history was and where their ancestors originated which might be of some help. I would be interested in knowing more about your brother's Livingston matches and see if any can make any sense in why he is matching these particular LIvingstons if he has any Livingston matches yet in his match group. Quite often there a number of other non Livingstone families matching with Livingstons in a Livingstone match group I have noticed.
With Familytreedna there a number of Livingstons worldwide who have done the familytreedna test who when tested with the Y chromosome test are matching with a number of different Y DNA match groups with familytreedna. There are three Y DNA match groups which most Livingstons tested whose Livingston ancestors resided in Argyllshire in the 1800's 1700's and before are matching with I have found and then a number of other Y DNA match groups which "other" Livingstons with other family origins elsewhere in lowland Scotland are matching.

It is possible that your family might be related to Dr. Livingstone's ancestors in some other way other than direct Livingston paternal ancestry, but it would be difficult to prove I would think. Over the years we have been contacted by many Livingstones who have a old family story somehow linking their Livingston family with those of Dr. Livingstones. In more than 15 years none have been proven to be closely related to Dr. Livingstone's family. Several Livingstones within that period of time who participated in the familytreedna testing however did match relatively closely with a relative of Dr. Livingstone, but they are a only a handful of the many Livingstones who have done the familytreedna Y Chromosome test in the last 15 years. That being said the YDNA test is our best chance of finding a close match sometime in the future. I am hoping that will happen and have been encouraging Livingstons who thinks they might be related to DR. Livingstone to consider the familytreedna test for someone in their family group. It really is the only way to be certain of paternal Livingston family connection either a distant family connection in Scotland or more recent depending on the marker results.

Regarding the Livingston info you mentioned it may be derived from Lismore native Alexander Carmichael's late 19th century research of the Bachuil Livingstones of Lismore and Dr. Livingstone. He was not a Livingston and took notes of what he was told and apparently interviewed some Argyllshire Livingstons at that time. He then in the early 1900's published an article based on what he was told. Some of info however seems to be incorrect. Regarding a paternal family connection between Dr. LIvingstone and the Bachuil Livingstones, DNA testing originally requested by the late Rob Livingston of our clan society of a proven Livingstone relative of Dr. LIvingstone has indicated that there was likely no Livingston ancestral connection between Dr. Livingstone's ancestors and those of the Bachuil Livingstones. While David Livingstone mentions in his first book that his great-grandfather died at Culloden, he mentions no family connection with the Bachuil LIvingstones. I have found a number of other errors in Alexander Carmichael's account of Dr. Livingstone and seems to not be aware that Dr. Livingstone's grandparents were actually Neil Morrison and Mary Morrison who were married in Lettermore, Mull in 1774 and who later relocated on the nearby Isle of Ulva and in 1790's moved with their children to Blantyre, Lanarkshire where their grandson Dr. Livingstone was born in 1813.

One of my challenges as Clan Society historian has been through written accounts, parish records, genealogy info and the DNA results a get a better understanding of Dr. Livingstone's ancestry. One of the biggest limitation to researching Dr. Livignstone's ancestors is that Dr. Livingstone and his family did not leave us with much information on the families early origins. The earliest Argyllshire parish records are of Dr. Livingstone's grandparents Neil Livingston and Mary Morrison marrying in 1774 and residing in Lettermore, Mull before moving on to the Isle of ULva. Dr. Livingstone only briefly mentioned his first book that his family had resided on the Isle of Ulva and talks about his grandfather but does even mention his name. Fortunately his older brother John b. in 1811 years later as an old man confirmed that his grand parents were in fact as the Mull parish records indicated Neil Livingston and Mary Morrison. Regretably, those hoping that Dr. LIvingstone and children left behind detailed family trees to help link their Livingston families will be disappointed. There is a lot of excitement to genealogy when one finds a family lead, but also over the years I have experienced some frustrations and road blocks to my research when I am unable to locate the family info I am looking for in the surviving records. I have a spent a lot of time researching Dr. LIvingstone's Livingston family and made some progress, found some interesting information and also identified some apparent errors, but it definitely not been easy. While Dr. LIvingstone was proud of his Livingstone family heritage, he was focused on providing his readers with a detailed genealogical family history in the first chapter of his first book which deals with his early family life. That is regrettably, but understandable as we was focusing in his first book primarily on relating to his readers an account of his work and adventures in Africa.

The good news is that several Livingston so far are matching with a Livingston related to Dr. Livingstone and that DNA results may be able to lead to a better understanding of earliest origins of Dr. Livingstone's ancestors before they lived in Mull, Argyll. The Livingston families matching with the Dr. LIvingstone match group they are so far more distantly connected to as indicated by the DNA testing I think may shed new light on a possible earlier Islay, southern Argyll connection and a 17th century Ayrshire, Scotland Livingston family connection with Dr. Livingstone's Mull, Argyll family. This is something I am hoping to look into.

regards,

Donald
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2704
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Livingstones of Reudle, Isle of Mull

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Janet,

Alexander Carmichael's earlier ancestral information linking Dr. LIvingstones ancestors with the Bachuil Livingstones on Lismore he gathered in the late 1800's for his later article of Dr. Livingstone was challenged in a Dr. Livingstone biography written back in the 1920's by Rev. R. J. Campbell. It is perhaps one of the best biographies written about Dr. Livingstone's life. Rev. Campbell in chapter 2 of his book, Livingstone'r origin and Early Years, notes that Alexander Carmichael earlier information regarding Dr. Livingstone's family lineage contradicts what was stated by Dr. Livingstone's brother John Livingstone 1811-1899 in the late 1800's including the fact that John and David's grandparents were as indicated in the Kilninian, Mull parish records Neil Livingston and Mary Morrison. Alexander Carmichael did not apparently have access in his research to close relatives of Dr. Livingstone when doing his research in Argyllshire and appears to have got his information from sources in Argyllshire who may have been Livingstones, but not David Livingstone's family members. I have found a few other bits of family information in the Carmichael article which is also at odds with what is known about Dr. LIvingstone's family. Rev. R.J. Campbell's Dr. Livingstone biography has been out of print for years, but copies can probably be found in libraries and used book copies can be ordered through Abe's book online and possibly Amazon.com. An excellent account of the entire life this iconic Doctor, missionary and explorer if one wishes to learn more about about him.

regards,
Donald
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2704
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Livingstones of Reudle, Isle of Mull

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Janet,

I have started looking at you family line generation by generations up to your Grandfather better familiarize myself with this family. The fact that your Livingston ancestry is of Argyllshire origin is of interest to me as I have been researching the genealogy of Livingstone of Argyllshire ancestry matching with the 3 main groups however there is always the possibility that there are other Livingston families who for whatever reason aren't a match with the main three Y DNA match groups of Argyllshire origin. So I would appreciate which DNA match group your brother is a match with and if there are any other Livingstons matching with his results. My thought is that they might have indicated something of their own Livingston family origins that might prove helpful in identifying the origins in Scotland of Livingstons and other families matching with your brother. I have only come across one or two Livingston of Argyll origin not matching with the three DNA match group I have studying but I think the possibility of smaller Argyllshire Livingston DNA family match groups is there and I came across in the last 15 years at least one possibly two that I working the research with who were not match with the three Argyll Livingston DNA match groups which most of the Livingston Argyll origin seem to be matching with at least those who I am aware over the last 15 years.

So any additional clues regarding the Scottish origins of any other Livingstons or other Scottish families matching with your brother's DNA match group would be prove to be very helpful to a better understanding of your brother results and a possible explanation.

I need a day or two to go through the first part of your family research generation by generation that you have kindly shared to get a better sense of things.

regards,

Donald
Jane M Livingstone
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:57 am

Re: Livingstones of Reudle, Isle of Mull

Post by Jane M Livingstone »

Hi Donald

I really appreciate you looking at this.

You are correct that my great uncle relied on Carmichael's account, and I am aware that there were errors. However, he also got information from the Duke of Argyll. However, I don't know how he got this information - probably through correspondence - and I don't know how accurate the information is.

Anyway, I cannot get beyond the marriage of John and Flora in the 1790s other than the stories. The family seem to have come to Mull from somewhere else, and it's this that I'm trying to find. There has been a mention of Appin, Morven and Achnacree.

My brother's results are in that spreadsheet that Andrew Lancaster put together. Are you able to access that? He was in a group that had a Mcleay. Looking at ftDNA doesn't help me much because I'm not too sure what I'm looking at.

Let me know if there's anything else I might be able to contribute.

Regards, Jane
Jane M Livingstone
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:57 am

Re: Livingstones of Reudle, Isle of Mull

Post by Jane M Livingstone »

Meanwhile, I'll have another look at the DNA.
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2704
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Livingstones of Reudle, Isle of Mull

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Jane,
Yes lets see if I can figure out something - find a clue in your brother's matches. Your Livingston family roots definitely seem to be Western Argyllshire in the 18th and 19th century which has been the focus of my own Livingston research over the last 15 years.
One of the most interesting things I noticed in the years I have been contributing with the discussion in the Clan Maclea Livingstone Forum and and as Clan Historian is that so many Livingston families worldwide of Scottish origin have a old story in their family of being somehow related to Dr. Livingstone's family or his Uncles. In most cases it is some connection to the paternal line in some way. We have had a numerous inquiries from Livingstons from around the world with such stories of a Dr. Livingstone connection and as I mentioned our family also had a story that the Livingstons we were related to might also be connected somehow to Dr. Livingstone. Flora Nightingale at one time referred to Dr. Livingstone as the greatest Britain of the Victorian age and given the admiration felt throughout the British Empire for his achievements in the years following his death, it is not surprising that Livingstones everywhere felt like he was one of theirs. Some these stories linking Dr. Livingstone to other Livingston families seem to have developed from that point in time and naturally talk of family connections with Dr. Livingstone's Argyllshire ancestor emerged by the late 1800's among some of remaining Livingstons who were still residing in Argyllshire. I have found no information that Dr. Livingstone himself ever stated he was related to the ancestor of the Bachuil Livingstones in the 18th century and it seems that Alexander Carmichael during the course of interviewing some Livingstons still residing in Argyllshire that one of them told him this was believed to be the case. Where and when this story originated is not known then, but presumingly it would have been following the death of Dr. LIvingstone. Dr. Livingstone's grandfather Neil Livingston Sr. was a struggling tenant farmer apparently of Mull, Argyll origin who at time of his marriage resided in Lettermore, Kilninian Mull when he married in 1774 and subsequently he and young family ended up renting a small plot of land on the southern coast of the Isle of Ulva before moving to Blantyre, Lanarkshire in the 1790's finding work at the mill of Monteith family there. Dr. Livingstone makes no mention of being descended from a titled family and instead in his first book Missionary Travels in South Africa, focuses more on the poverty of his family. It however seems unlikely that if he knew of his grandfather's family connection to the Bachuil LIvingstones and had been told by his family storyteller Grandfather Livingston, that he would not allude to it in his very brief discussion of his family early origins in the first chapter of his book.

It is important to note that Dr. Livingstone had grandchildren from surviving children but none of his sons had sons so no grandchildren to carry on the paternal Livingstone line. So none of Dr. Livingstone's great-grandchildren male or female or his great-great or great-great-great grandchildren will have the Livingstone family name. A Livingstone or Livingston could be somehow related to a Dr. Livingstone's ancestors or Livingston cousins of his ancestors but no detailed family tree of these early 18th century and earlier Livingston families related to Dr. Livingstone. The Y DNA testing over the next decades will hopefully result in more Livingstons matching with the Dr. Livingstone Y DNA match with familytreedna. Most but not all Livingstons whose ancestors lived in the 18th and 19th centuryArgyllshire seem to matching with a Y DNA match group we have referred to over the last 15 years of testing as the Parker Livingstone group mainly seemingly of Mull, Morvern and other neighbouring parishes of Western Argyll. But not all Livingtons with Livingston ancestors with known and documented 18th and19th century Argyllshire origins are a match with this group. I am hoping to figure out why your brother did match with this Parker Livingstone group or the other two main Livingstone DNA match groups with known and proven 18th and 19th century Argyllshire Livingston origins.

I have over the years come across 2 Livingston family situations where an apparent adoption of a Livingston into another family and then years later their descendant is tested and found to be definitely a highland Livingston who was adopted into another family in two situation, so it is almost certain that in some situations inversely some Livingstons who are tested at some point in time might prove to have been descended from an orphaned child long ago in scotland adopted into a Livingston family and thus their descendant when tested does not match with a Livingston group. If your brother has no Livingston matches now or in the future with his DNA match group that might be one possible scenario but I cant really say that is the case with one of your Livingston ancestors in the 18th or in the centuries before that.

regards,

Donald
Jane M Livingstone
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:57 am

Re: Livingstones of Reudle, Isle of Mull

Post by Jane M Livingstone »

Hi Donald

You made a post on 20th January 2018 in the DNA forum in response to a man from the Netherlands. In that post you referred to my brother's DNA result. I thought I'd remind you of this so that you are not wasting time unnecessarily.

My brother is in the Scots r1b1 group but with some irregularities in his results.

Hope this helps.

Regards, Jane
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