Livingston/Levingston of Murray Township, Northumberland County, Ontario

Public Forum for anyone interested in tracing their roots.
Forum rules
Remember that this forum is publicly accessible. Do not share private information that you wish to remain private on the Ancestral Search forum.
EMACNEIL
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2019 4:29 am

Livingston/Levingston of Murray Township, Northumberland County, Ontario

Post by EMACNEIL »

My husband's 3rd great grandparents were Angus Livingston (1769 Penmore) and Christian McLucas (c 1778) who emigrated from Scotland to Cape Breton, Nova Scotia. My husband's grandmother was Euphemia Beatrice Livingston. We are always interested in comparing information on these ancestors so would be happy to connect to fellow researchers.

In 2020, we met a Livingston from Owen Sound, Ontario whose family lore was that his Livingstons came to Ontario after a stay in Nova Scotia and so we began researching to see if and where a connection might be. One of his relatives had a unique name - Manley Livingston (c 1870) - and he and his family showed up in the 1871 and following census returns from Murray Township, Northumberland County, Ontario. They eventually moved to Essa, Simcoe County and some made their way to Owen Sound and area. Manley's father was William and his mother Margaret. Her surname appeared with different spelling on several documents - Geroling, Gerolaing, Jermoly and possibly Geronally. On one document, she was identified as having been born in Prince Edward Island. Manley's siblings were Margaret( c 1852), Christina (c 1858), Harriet (c 1859), Thelma (c 1861), Rheanna (c 1862), John (c 1863), Annie (c 1867) and Mary Frances (c 1875). The odd thing is that, despite their estimated birth years, none of the first four children appeared with William and Margaret on the 1861 census.

I believe William's parents to be Peter Livingston and Christina Porter with whom William and Margaret were living on the 1861 census. On the 1851 census for Northumberland County, Peter (c 1791) identifies his birth place as the United States and Christina's (c 1794) as Canada. Children's names were Francis (c 1819), Aaron (c 1822), Timothy (c 1825), William (c 1830), Eliza (c 1836) and John (c 1839). They were all identified as being born in Canada. In the 1861 census, Peter identifies again as being born in the United States and Christina in Upper Canada. In the 1881 census, he identifies as being born in Ontario, as does Christina.This is the first census where origin was asked and, in that column, United States is crossed out and Germany written over it for both Peter and Christina.

I'm wondering if anyone might have this family in their records?

Thanks...Elaine
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2704
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Livingston/Levingston of Murray Township, Northumberland County, Ontario

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Elaine,

Welcome to the Clan Maclea Livingstone Forum. I have some familiarity over the years with Angus Livingstone and Christian McPhail of Penmore, Kilninian Parish, Mull who later settled in Cape Breton, Nova Scotia and have been in touch over the years with some of their descendants. More about my research and work with some of these descendants later. I did a detailed study of old Angus Livingston who served during the Napoleonic Wars as served during the Napoleonic Wars on the Royal George before he ended up with his family settling Cape Breton Nova Scotia. There were a number of Royal George vessels over the years when I went researching but the one he served on from what I can tell served in the defence of the Channel in case of a naval attack or invasion of England by the French. I have some detailed information on Angus and his family early on in Cape Breton, I just have to refresh my memory and check the information.

I am not familiar however with Manley Livingstone you mention and this Livingston family that early on lived in Murray Township, Northumberland County and later moved to Simcoe County and Owen Sound. Complicating things of course is that there were a lot of "other' Livingston families residing in Simcoe County with other origins I am more familiar with. So it probably best for me to try to do what you did and trace this family of Manley Livingston back to where lived in Ontario in the years before they headed for Simcoe County. Too many Livingston families of other origins in Simcoe County in the 1800's. If an answer regrind the mystery of the origin of Manley Livingstone particular Livingstone family origins is out there then it would be best found in familiarizing myself with the earlier family information in Ontario in the 1800's you mentioned. Don't know however if I can be any further help on this family but will try to familiarize myself with what you found and see if any be of any help. If your friends related toManley Livingston's descendant ever find themselves getting nowhere with their earlier Livingston family origins in Scotland or Ulster Ireland or Germany familytreedna has been doing Y DNA testing of Llivingstons worldwide from a number of origins which has proven helpful in grouping related Livingston families in many cases. Y DNA testing utilizes the Y chromosome of a Male Livingstone or Livingston tested and familytreedna and Clan Maclea Livingstone has been working with this test for some years now as a starting point in helping to identify and group Livingstons. More defining and advanced SNP testing is also now being utilized by some of those who were originally Y DNA tested. Anyways to make a long story short if the Manley Livingstone descendants are unable to make progress in determining their earlier Livingstone family origins in Scotland, Ulster Ireland or Germany for example Y DNA testing that familytreedna offers might prove to be helpful. I will take a look at the information you found and see if i can find anything else perhaps some further clues but if not and the Manley Livingston descendants are also stuck the Y DNA testing with family tree is a possible helpful tool.

I should let you know regarding this Y DNA that a Livingstone descendant of Angus Livingstone and Christian McPhee did the Y DNA test a few years ago with familytreedna with my encouragement and they were a match with a good number of other Maclea Livingstones that also had done the Y DNA test of highland Maclea Livingstone Western Argyllshire origin whose ancestors in the 18th and 19th century are known to have resided in Mull, neighbouring Morvern where my Livingstone ancestors came from and from some other nearby Parishes mostly in Western Argyllshire where the Clan originated and where the family of it's Clan Chief Baron Niall Livingstone, his family and his Bachuil Maclea Livingstone ancestors have lived at Bachuil, Isle of Lismore, Argyll for centuries.

regards,

Donald (Livingstone) Clink
Historian
Clan Maclea Livingstone
EMACNEIL
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2019 4:29 am

Re: Livingston/Levingston of Murray Township, Northumberland County, Ontario

Post by EMACNEIL »

Thank you for your reply, Donald, and I will look forward to your investigation of Manley and family. I do have marriage information for some of Manley's siblings but didn't want to post anything further until someone picked up on my message. There was also a Samuel Livingston in Northumberland County around the same time who could have been a brother to Peter. I'm not familiar with the history around when and where the Loyalists settled in Upper Canada but I do know that area of Ontario has some United Empire Loyalist history.

Regarding Angus Livingston and his spouse - you mentioned both Christian McPhail and Christian McPhee and I just want to be sure we are talking about the same Angus. I have Christian McLucas as the spouse of Angus.

I did read through most, if not all, the posts on the Boularderie Livingstons which is the group to which my husband belongs. His line descends though Alexander Livingston (Isabella Deason) and John (Elizabeth Hayes). His grandmother, Euphemia Beatrice was the youngest of John and Elizabeth's 10 children. I read in a much earlier post the reference to some of the children being raised Catholic. This may be old news by now but two of Alexander and Isabella Deason's children were baptized Catholic in 1864 when they were older - Archibald, aged 13, and Christina, aged 11. Their son, John, married Elizabeth Hayes in a Catholic Church and my husband's relatives were raised Catholic.

Elaine
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2704
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Livingston/Levingston of Murray Township, Northumberland County, Ontario

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Elaine,
Sorry to confuse. For a moment and I was thinking of another old Nova Scotia Livingston family with a Christina McPhee. Yes indeed I mean't to say Angus Livingston's wife Christina McLucas. Yes one of the best known Livingston loyalist families of New York State origin to settle in Eastern Upper Canada in the late 1700's was a Daniel Livingston who was of Argyllshire ancestry possibly of Islay and who had been in a British regiment serving during the French and Indian Wars in the mid 1700's and in the 1760's following the end of the was granted land by King George in colonial America and up to the time of the American Revolution and for a time thereafter lived in New York Colony which later became New York State. During the Revolution he again served with the British and he eventually left New York State after the Revolutionary War and settled with his family in eastern Upper Canada where he received a land grant from the Government of Upper Canada. I found that one of his sons years later included his original New York land grant from King George from the 1860's in a later land petition of his son John Livingston in Upper Canada in the early 1800's which I was surprised find his son has sent to the Government of Upper Canada as additional proof of his father's earlier military service during the French and Indian War in then Colonial America. I am sure that any descendant of Daniel Livingston in Ontario and I have been in touch with one or two of them over the years would love to the copy of the original land grant from the 1760's to Daniel also known as Donald Livingston when he served with his British regiment during the French and Indian Wars. His son John Livingston actually at one point interestingly in one of his letters of petition to the Crown for a land grant years later in Upper Canada explains that his father Daniel Livingston oddly enough was referred in the military records during the French and Indian Wars as Donald Livingston which helped to solve a mystery I had found confusing when looking at the earlier colonial American info on Daniel Livingston's life in America before the American Revolution. Daniel is one the earliest Livingstons of probable Argyllshire Scotland origins I am aware of to settle in Upper Canada. I am also familiar with a number of other Argyllshire Livingston families that settled in Upper Canada/Ontario later in Ontario.

I have over the years slowly but surely been trying to keep track and research as much as possible the earliest Livingstone/Livingston settlers of Argyll Scottish origin that settled in Canada which includes a comprehensive study I conducted of most of the original Argyllshire Livingstone families that settled in Nova Scotia and neighbouring PEI and have worked or been in contact with a number of descendants of these Nova Scotia and PEI families over the years including some Livingstons who are also descended from old Angus Livingstone and Christie McLucas like you. We are fortunate that most of the old Nova Scotia Livingstone families have had at least one related Livingston who has done the familytree Y DNA test over the last 15 years or more and while it shows that their ancestors were all connected to a old branch of the same Argyllshire Maclea Livingstone family group the results probably don't back up the notion that that some of the original Nova Scotia Livingstone ancestors who settled in Nova Scotia in the early 1800's were brothers as some of the early histories of some old Nova Scotia families has suggested. What the Y DNA testing has shown that most Livingstones/Livingstons of Mull and neighbouring Morvern Parish where my ancestor Miles Livingstone originated are likely descended from a common ancestor in Argyllshire for certain. More advanced testing known as SNP test if done in the future I am told could perhaps give us someday a timeline when they may have shared that common ancestor.

I will look up some of the highlights of what I have on your Livngstones and also familiarize and see what I can find if anything on this Manley Livingston and his ancestors.

regards,

Donald
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2704
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Livingston/Levingston of Murray Township, Northumberland County, Ontario

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Elaine,

While there are number of Ontario Census that refer to William Livingston and his son Manley Livingston as be of Scottish ancestry and Presbyterians studying the census records most significantly the 1871 Census for William's father Peter Livingston or Levingston of Murray Township, Northumberland County, Ontario states he is of German ethnic origin a Presbyterian and born in the United States. The 1851 Census which lists the complete family of Peter Livingston confirms that Peter Livingston b. about 1790 was born in the United States.
Then later the 1901 Census both the census info for Peter son's William Livingston or Levingston born in Canada in 1831 is of German ancestry and as well as William's son Manley Livingston or Levingston also indicates that William born 1871 in Canada is of German ancestry. What I know is that there were in fact a number of German families in the United States in the 1800's who at some point in America had adopted the Scottish name Livingston and referred to themselves as Livingston or Levingston. Some of them have been in touch with me over the years. A Y DNA test with Familytreedna would probably help to determine whether or not they are Scottish or German.

regards,
Donald
EMACNEIL
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2019 4:29 am

Re: Livingston/Levingston of Murray Township, Northumberland County, Ontario

Post by EMACNEIL »

Donald:

I saw that as well, lots of variance in ancestry/origin, which is confusing. I am still researching William's siblings but Scottish and/or German appears in their records as well.

I have been reading about the German Palantines and Livingston Manor - is that what you're thinking? If they were German, would the selection of Presbyterian as religion have been consistent with similar immigrants?

Elaine
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2704
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Livingston/Levingston of Murray Township, Northumberland County, Ontario

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Elaine,
Hard to pinpoint the reason why some of the census records for this family refer to them as of German ethnic ancestry and others of Scottish. I don't why a family of German ancestry would attend a Scottish Presbyterian churchh and also why Peter's family ended up with a Scottish name Livingston when he was German. The Livingston Manor Livingstons connected to Robert Livingston lord of Livingston Manor, NY were definitely of Scottish ancestry. Robert Livingston's family in Scotland were compelled to flee to Holland because the Robert's father was opposed to the Scottish government. But they were not Dutch or German. There was definitely a German family in Pennsylvania that changed their name in the 1800's to Livingston and there was a Livingston who married a Palentine German family in New York and it was assumed the Livingston husband might also be a Palentine but that was I think proven not to be case.

It is really a difficult situation I agree with census records seeming to suggest German ancestry or Scottish ancestry. I lean towards the notion that Manley Livingston's grandfather was of German ancestry but you are quite right that I can not prove that to be case. I have just researched many Livingston family from the census records and kind of have a second sense about these things, but I could be wrong about Peter Livingston being of German ancestry. Has to be some reason though why we are seeing in a number of the census records and interestingly in the case of the 1901 Census in both Manley Livingston's census info and also in his father William Livingston's census info. Why would they both record their ethnicity on separate census forms in 1901. Why would they bother to write in that they were both of German ethnic origin during the 1901 Census? And why did Peter Livingston state in the 1871 Census he was German ethnic origin if was of Scottish ancestry? That is a question I guess I am not capable of answering. It is a bit of a family mystery for certain. I have taken a look over the years at some Livingstons suspecting they are actually German, but my area of expertise and familiarity is really with Scottish Livingstones to be honest. Your husband's ancestor Angus Livingston and his descendants I have much more knowledge of as an old Cape Breton Livingstone family of Mull, Argyll origin who settled in Cape Breton in the early 1800's.

regards,

Donald
EMACNEIL
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2019 4:29 am

Re: Livingston/Levingston of Murray Township, Northumberland County, Ontario

Post by EMACNEIL »

Donald:

Thank you so much for taking a look at this. I will continue to pick away at it and, if I come up with anything that seems to make sense, I'll let you know. I will suggest to our Livingston friend that he consider DNA testing.

I do know that the same inconsistency around origin or nationality continued with William's brothers as I have traced some of them. The only other thing I could think of is that some of the wives may have been German and were the ones to speak to the census takers. As I said, William's wife's surname was reported with at least four different spellings. Maybe I'll try looking for her relatives to get a lead.

Thanks again...Elaine
Canadian Livingstone
Posts: 2704
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:00 pm

Re: Livingston/Levingston of Murray Township, Northumberland County, Ontario

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Elaine,

Regarding my own paternal line which is of Wuertemberg German origin our family having arrived in Colonial America in 1754 firstly in Pennsylvania and then by the late 1750's my German 5th great grandfather taking up permanent settlement in the then Colony of New York near the present day of Town of Poughkeepsie, NY. In Wuerttemburg my German ancestors were members of a Lutheran congregation and they and other German settlers in their area in the Colony of New York helped to establish a Lutheran Church. His son from his first marriage, my ancestor joined his Father with his new family and later he with a half brother settled in Albany County around the time of the American Revolution where he attended a Dutch reform Church for a change which was in the area I guess because it was in the area. The son in Albany County married a woman of English descent of an old Rhode Island family after his first wife died so she had affialiation with a German Lutheran church. The Dutch Reform church in America I was told was similar the Presbyterian Church. Their son my Great-great-great grandfather was then only half German with an Anglo American mother.

My Great-great-great grandfather born in the 1780's lived for a time in Albany County, NY and he after he married a woman of Swedish and English colonial ancestry whose Uncle a Doctor had lived in Albany County and in the 1790's settled in nearby Upper Canada where her father had also settled later in 1803. My Great-great-grandfather and his wife were told by her Uncle they could settle in Upper Canada near the American border where on Uncle's large Upper Canada land grant he had received and then eventually providing he swore a oath of loyalty to King George could receive a good sized land grant himself in Upper Canada. Many American were encouraged the Government of Upper Canada to settled in the largely unpopulated at that time Upper Canada providing they sign that oath of ALLegiance to the Crown. A 100 acre land grant in Upper Canada was a pretty good incentive for folks in neighbouring New York State to considering settling in Upper Canada in late 1700's and early 1800's.

My Great-great Grandfather was born in New York State in 1810 and with his father and mother settled in Upper Canada in 1811. My Great-great grandfather married a woman of highland Argyllshire ancestry in the 1830's in Upper Canada (later known as Ontario, Canada) whose father was a Livingstone a native of Morvern Argyll and a boatbuilder who was married in the Church of Scotland in Scotland before leaving for British North America back in 1812. The family was highland Livingstone and my great-great grandfather's children for the most part carried their mother's Scottish Livingston name as their middle name along with their father German family name. In Upper Canada our family then became one of mixed German and highland Scottish ancestry but over the years although we were German ethnic ancestry with our mixture of Colonial American English and Highland Scottish ancestry our family in Upper Canada and in later years have never a Lutheran Church and always been Presbyterians or Methodists or some variation of both Churches. My grandfather living in Canada settled in the U.S. in the 1920's permanently but never attended a Lutheran church. In the case then in the history of my father's family of German ancestry in North America since the 1750's it was only really my immigrant 5th Great grandfather born in Germany and his children and my ancestor from his first marriage that attended a Lutheran Church in the Colony of New York prior to the Revolution. After the Revolution my ancestors of German ancestry basically stopped attending the German Lutheran Church from what I can tell and over the later generations with their German origins more and more in the distant family past and having intermarried with persons of English and Scottish ancestry and attended a number of protestant churches but never returned to the Lutheran Church of their ancestors. My grandfather continued to fill in on his census form that he was German ancestry though I know he was in heart closer to his grandmother's highland Scottish Argyllshire family roots and my Father told me he very proud to be descended from the highland Livingstones. My Grandfather had grown during World War 1 and lived during World War 11 so he like a number of our relatives who lived during that terrible time were not particularly enthusiastic about their German heritage.

So I guess other German families settling in America like the family of Peter Livingston you mentioned did not feel necessarily tied down to attending only a Lutheran Church in North America which likely if they are in fact of German ancestry they probably would have attended in Germany. In America particularly if there was no Lutheran Church nearby or if their wife was not Lutheran however they might be inclined to consider another Protestant Church in America or Canada. In small communities unlike larger communities no doubt one would be somewhat limited in terms of local Churches. Whatever the reasons of the Peter Livingston family and descendants to prefer the Scottish Presbyterian Church they are not clear as it is not clear as you point whether they German or of Scottish ancestry. This one is really a tough mystery to solve. Probably a simply explanation if I knew precisely what it was. So I just really at this point time speculating at best. Sorry for meandering a bit here but I am just trying to brainstorm and consider possible reasons why Peter Livingston's family attended a Presbyterian Church. Of course the easiest solution would be that he was of Scottish Livingston ancestry many of those who were of the Church of Scotland in Scotland or the Presbyterian Church in Canada.

regards,

Donald
EMACNEIL
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2019 4:29 am

Re: Livingston/Levingston of Murray Township, Northumberland County, Ontario

Post by EMACNEIL »

Donald:

Your family history is very interesting with so much to search.

It's wonderful that many family researchers and genealogists love the mystery part as well. I think it's partly what keeps me coming back - trying to fgure out the answers. It's why I flesh out as many family members as I can, rather than just our specific ancestor, in case a clue is to be found in a sibling or aunt/uncle's documents.

One of the things that intrigues me about this family, and I'm not even sure we're connected to them, is the choice of names - Peter and Christina's male children and then William and Margaret's son, Manley. Aaron, Francis, Timothy, William, John and Manley. William only had two sons, if I've captured them all - John and Manley.

Other than William and John, which were common names in many families, I don't have a Livingston in our Cape Breton tree that has that name. Would those four names be connected more with Irish families? In your family lines, did you find a naming tradition? Would it be likely that Peter's first born son, Aaron, would have been namesd after his father? Although I haven't fleshed out Peter's wife's (Christina) parents, other people have named her parents as Timothy Porter and Nancy Simmons.Peter and Christina had both a Timothy and a Nancy.

Elaine
Post Reply