Kildalton, Argyll Livingston/es

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Alkayus
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Re: Kildalton, Argyll Livingston/es

Post by Alkayus »

That was all very informative. Thank you very much Donald. I am making sure I write this all down. I have not seen any land grants as of yet, but I am very interested, as well as in any OPRs. I have at one time saw a OPR for his father having been born in Argyll in 1704, but I am having such a hard time finding it again. I have no idea why I did not save it; stupid me! I also certainly have to read that book. Time to see if I can get my hands on it. Any other information you or any other member may have would be greatly, greatly appreciated. Besides here and possibly that book I really dont have any other sources. I have tried some research but to no avail :( Thank you again, so very much. It is amazing being a part of this community and seeing just how much history is behind me and in my blood.
Alba Gu Bràth
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Re: Kildalton, Argyll Livingston/es

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Eric,
Here is what I struggle with regarding your pioneer Upper Canada ancestor Daniel Livingston.
The thing is that most of the County of Argyll Parish baptismal/birth records from the period of the 1730's when it believed Daniel Livingston was born have not survived and do not exist. And those few parishes in Argyllshire that have records before 1750 with the exception of Kildalton Parish on the Isle of Islay do not have baptismal or birth records for Livingstons or our earlier clan name as Maclea. The one Daniel Livingston born or baptised and recorded before 1750 in Kildalton Parish in Islay obviously was noticed by early researchers looking for Daniel Livingston's Argyllshire highland origins and is the only Daniel Livingston born before 1750 listed in the Argyllshire. That being said I am pretty certain that the late Edwin Livingston and other family researchers of Daniel's in the past did not have any documented evidence from the Upper Canada records that indicated that Daniel Livingston fahter of Simeon Livingston was the Daniel Livingston born in the 1730's on the Island of Islay, Argyll though it quite possible that he is.

I guess the point I am making then it is possible he is the Daniel Livingston that lived in Kildalton Parish, Islay but that some folks have made an assumption not based on solid proof and years ago perhaps published it as such. All the early Upper Canada info on old Daniel regarding Scotland that I can see is a 1793 Upper Canada stating he a native of Scotland and I dont have much to go on regarding any Kildalton Parish, Islay origins that has been stated in the past.

regards,

Donald
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Re: Kildalton, Argyll Livingston/es

Post by jmlivingstone »

Donald,

I have a copy of the original OPR for Donald Livingstone, b.1731 at Kenture, Kilmeny, Islay, as per normal for that time, no mothers name is recorded, his father is also Donald. So far I cannot find any further info on his parents.

The OPR is in poor condition, but is readable,

John
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Re: Kildalton, Argyll Livingston/es

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi John,
Coincidently, I have been giving these Islay Livingstons alot of thought over the last couple of years. I was trying to figure out why a small group of Livingstons were showing in Southern Argyllshire before 1750 primarily in Kildalton Parish, while are best information in Argyllshire was indicating that most of the clan was still going with the Maclea or Maconlea name including our Chief's Bachuil family. (See 1751 Argyll Census of landowners).

Those Livingstons that appear before 1750 in the Islay Parish records at Kildalton and sorry Kilmeny Parish are of great interest to me given that we know from these early 1700's parish records on Islay there were a few families on Islay that went by the name Livingstons as early as 1720's and likely before that while most of the clan elsewhere in Argyllshire went by the name McLea or Maconlea. One theory regarding this is that those who went by the name Livingston and resided in the early 1700's and possibly before that on Islay is that they are of Scotch Irish Livingston origin and their families are connected to a Livingston family or families that settled in neigbhouring Ulster in the North of IReland in the 1600's from lowland Scotland. What has now reinforced this theory of mine are the DNA test results for Livingstons of Northern Irish and neighbouring Islay origin.

Later in the 1700's it appears to me that Islay was populated by a second group of Livingstons who connect with a common highland Maclea-Livingstone group common to those Highland Maclea Livingstone residing in the MUll and neighbouring Movern area of which your ancestors are connected to. My great-great-great grandfather Miles Livingstonea native of Morvern Parish and other Morvern Livingston kin were at Kilarrow Parish and another parish on Islay for a few years in the late 1700's or early 1800's. Miles, his teenage son Donald from his first marriage, his second wife Janet and an apparent cousin Donald Livingston a boatbuilder also originally from MOrvern left Islay in the Summer of 1812 on their way to a Lord Selkirks settlement in Canada. |
These Mull and Movern Livingstones apparently migrated to Islay in the late 1700's and early 1800's to support themselves and their families with whatever work was available to them in the latter part of the 1700's. Later in the 1800's some of these Livingstons throughout Islay left for America and Canada. It is quite clear that these Mull/Morvern highland Livingstons were preceded by an older family or families who went by the name Livingston long before the 1750's and are not related to the Mull Movern Livingston family group.

In the 1830's there were a large number of Islay folk that left Islay for Canada. Among them I have identified two families of Islay Livingstons, one of which I am contact with. ANother Islay Livingston family settled in North Carolina in the early 1800's which the Society is also in touch with. Interestingly this two families seem to be linked ancestrally at some point in time with a group of Livingstons that resided in the Northern Ireland in the early 1700's. The DNA testing of these two Livingston family groups linked with whatever family history information we have their regarding known and/or documented Scottish origins is proving to be very helpful in beginning to better understand the possible origins of both Livingston family groups. I should mention that we dont have a Livingston descendant of Daniel Livingston of LeedS County, Upper Canada (Ontario,Canada) participating in the Maclea Livingstone DNA Project at present so there is no genealogical DNA information regarding which Livingstone DNA group Daniel's Livingston descendants are linked to. As far as I know Eric is the first of Daniel's descendants to contact the Society and the forum in recent years. Hopefully in the future with a Livingston descendant of Daniel's participating in the DNA project we may be able to determine which group Daniel's descendants and Daniel himself originated from. As Daniel and I think a number of his sons received land in Leeds County, Ontario, Canada some of his Livingston descendants may still reside there. And of course as Eric has pointed out his son Simeon went back to New York State his early ancestor by the early 1800's.

regards,

Donald
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Re: Kildalton, Argyll Livingston/es

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Eric,

The early information on Daniel in New York State mentions Salem and Greenwich and Argyll Township in Charlotte County later to become Washington County after the Revolutionary War. Greenwich was originally part of Argyll Township so that makes sense. A while back

My research indicated that officers and enlisted men in Montgomery Highlanders the 77th Regiment disbanded members of that regiment in the years following the end of the French and Indian Wars in 1763 were offered land grants in Argyll and nearby Hebron Township and elsewhere in Charlotte County after the regiment had disbanded around 1763. THere is unfortunately contradictory informations contained in the Upper Canada land petitions of Daniel Livingston's eldest son John Livingston that suggests that he Daniel also served with the Montgomery Highlanders and therefore that Argyll Township is where his military land grant was located in the then Colony of New York, but another document included in a later land petition of the son John Livingston, an original copy of his father's land grant makes it clear that he received a land grant in the year 1765 not as a former member of Montgomery's Highlanders but as a former member of the other Highland regiment the 78th Frasers Highlanders. I knew that Montgomery's Highlander men had received grants in the Argyll Township and adjacent area so I assumed that is why we find that Daniel shows up there in that area after the French and Indian wars but there is this conflicting info that indicates that he served with Frasers Highlanders

There is information that Daniel was residing near the Salem area in 1771 and was forced to seek the protection of the Presbyterian church community in Salem when Ethan Allen and his Green Mountain were making raids in the area. Ethan Allen and others in the Vermont area had some sort of land dispute with those in the Salem area and other nearby communities. Scottish settlements in Washington County (Charlotte County then) were among those attacked. Allen later considered to be a famous hero of the American Revolution is known to have used intimidation and force to remove settlers in 1771 from disputed terrritory in the then colony of New York.

According to J. P. Maclean`s book Àn Historical Account of The Settlements of Scotch Highlanders in America Prior to the Peace of 1783`,
regarding the 1771 disturbances by Ethan Allen and his men:

``Charles Hutchison, formerly a corporal in Montgomery`s Highlanders testified that Ethan Allen and eight others on the above date (October 29,1771)came to his residence of New Perth and began to demolish it. Hutchison requested them to stop, but they declared that would make burnt offerings to the gods of this world by burning the logs of that house. Allen and another man held clubs over Hutchison`s head ordered him to leave the locality and declared that in case he returned he should be worse treated. ``

So while we dont know the original source of the information that Daniel and family was removed from their farm near Salem, NY in 1771 by Ethan ALlen and his people, we do know he would in all likelihood in the vicinity when these raids by Ethan Allen was being made and when Scottish settlers were being forced from their land. Daniel later states that after the Revolution he was residing in Argyll, Ny before coming up to Canada which may well have been the part of Argyll that became known as Greenwich,NY. And in the 1760`s and 1770`s he appears to have been located elsewhere in Charlotte County (Washington County) possibly on his military land grant from the 1760`s which seems to have located close to the settlement of Salem, NY. In 1783 there is purchase of land in Argyll New York State by a Daniel Livingston which is probably Daniel before he came to Canada unless it was his son Daniel Jr.

There was interestingly a Livingston family of Islay Argyllshire origin that had settled in the area with other Islay highland folk years earlier in the 1730's in the original Argyll Township area. THey do not however seemed to have received formal ownership of the land they lived on all those years as it was apparently only in the 1760's that the colonial government in the then Province of New York and the Crown gave them ownership of their land. A widow Isabella Livingston was one of those original settlers who settled in the Argyll Township area. I think here husband or son was named Archibald Livingston. Not sure about that. THere appears to have been Livingston descendants in the area I assume of this original Livingston family that resided there after the Revolution.
The Maclean book which I have interestingly mentions an Isabella Livingston a land grantee on a lot 65 òriginally belonging in Argyle township but now forming part of Greenwich. The lists include grantees in the Township of GReenwich and those in Salem but it is not clear to me if these were the original grantees or when after 1764 these persons resided on the land. Nor do I know who Isabella Livingston was or if she was connected to Daniel Livingston. But it is interesting that a Livingston is mentioned in the Greenwich area. Anyways Daniel and family seem to be connected to this Salem and Greenwich and the Argyll area of what became Washington County, NY and the before the Revolution known as Washington County, NY.

Information included in a later Upper Canada land petition of John Livingston the eldest son of Daniel Livingston later of Augusta, Grenville County, Johnstown District Upper Canada challenges the notion that he received a grant of land in the 1760's in New York State for serving in the French and Indian Wars with the Montgomery's Highlanders. Though it is clear from Daniel's information that he lived in the Salem and Argyll, Ny are before coming to Canada the documentation in his sons 1835 land petition includes information stating his father Daniel also known as Donald Livingson served in the French and Indian Wars with another Highland Regiment that of the 78th regiment known as the Frasers Regiment. Including with John's petition to the Government of Upper Canada is what appears to the original 1765 land grant document issued from the Province of New York on behalf of King George the Third and granting a Donald Livingston (presumingly Daniel Livingston) the son states that the British called him Donald. and that the grant document indicates only that he and two other soldiers received land on the east of the Hudson River in Albany County.

The question then is when did he end up in Salem, Charlotte County, Ny. He states he was living there before he left for Upper Canada.

regards,

Donald
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Alkayus
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Re: Kildalton, Argyll Livingston/es

Post by Alkayus »

Thank you very much again! All this information is amazing, you are like fountain of knowledge lol.
Alba Gu Bràth
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Re: Kildalton, Argyll Livingston/es

Post by blivingstone148 »

Hello Donald,

I am a descendant of Daniel Livingstone and Irwin Livingston was my great grandfathers brother (if I remember correctly. Possibly cousin). I still have a Irwins book on Daniel Livingstone and his descendants. Small tangent, I first read it when my family and I moved out to NJ from Chicago and when I made the realization that basking ridge, NJ is the town right next to my parents, I was quiet intrigued. Regardless, I have always wondered if I am supposed to put an 'e' at the end of my name. My logic has always been that since he was a frasers highlander (coming from the highlands) that Daniel was originally a McLea. Being a McLea and not an original Livingston, Daniel was really a Livingston(e). This is how the story goes and is a moderately large rift in my family with some including the 'e' (including mine) and some that do not. Do you have any insight into this?

Thanks,

Brent Livingstone
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Re: Kildalton, Argyll Livingston/es

Post by jmlivingstone »

Brent,

In my family, my g/father has an e on Livingstone, my father does not & I also have the e, so even in Scotland, it would appear to depend solely on how observant the person registering the birth is, or how the registrar decided to spell that name.

In my opinion, it makes no difference, in the end,it's the same name, we also have at least one case where the spelling is Liveston,

John
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Re: Kildalton, Argyll Livingston/es

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Brent,
It is as John says very much a question of personal choice or more often the choice of one's ancestor who may have established a tradition of a particular spelling. Looking at the spellings in old 18th and 19th century Parish records one seems to fine a preference for one spelling or the other. In the old Census records both Scottish and North American the same thing, but one has to also factor in that the census taker frequently spelt the family names as he wished and not necessarily how the family being censused intended it to be spelt. I prefer "Livingstone" sounds nicer but my own Livingston ancestors more often than not spelt it simply Livingston, though I have frequently found it spelt Livingstone from time to time in some old family info.

Welcome to the Clan Maclea Livingstone Society Forum. Yes I thought eventually that if we posted information on old Daniel of New York State and later Upper Canada that we might finally cross paths with a Livingston (or Livingstone) descendant of his. Daniel is an interesting if not somewhat elusive character to research.
A descendant in Canada many years ago now published another book on Daniel and his family, a small booklet basically on Daniel which was quite informative. Of Course it is now long since out of print, but I have seen some of the main information from this old book in the research of kin of Daniel from time to time. The name of the book slips my mind for the moment, but I am familiar with it. Daniel had a large family with many sons and interesting life. I think the assumption was he is the Daniel Livingston who appears in the early Parish records in Kildalton, Parish, Islay in Southern Argyllshire. I am not certain however that there are any original New York Colony records or later records when he settled in Upper Canada that stated those kind of details as to his specific place of origins. It is pretty clear to me from looking at some old Colonial New York info that he was a highland Livingston likely from Argyllshire recruited into a Scottish regiment during the french and Indian War period in America. I don't remember all the details of the top my head but I do remember that he like other soldier who had served in America were I think in the 1760's a land grant in New York Colony and I remember some interesting details of where he had settled and some military info i located that was quite interesting. I think he served in a couple of regiments actually in America, before the Revolution, but he and his family or at least most of his sons left New York State some years after the end of the Revolutionary War. I think many of the details are in previous posting possibly. Some of his sons I think may have returned to New York State, but a number of them I think received an Upper Canada land grant in the 1790's around the same time as their father Daniel did in Upper Canada. You are I think the first descendant of Old Daniel with the family name Livingston to contact our forum.


THere is unfortunately with the old documents included in his son John's 1798 and 1835 Upper Canada Land Petition two conflicting documents one an original land grant of 1765 which states that Donald whom John says is his father Daniel Livingston served in the Frasers Highlanders and received land on the east side of the Hudson River in the Province of New York in 1765 for having served in Frasers Highlanders durign the French and Indian War. Years earlier in his first petition of 1798 the son John includeds a a certificate written by ALexander Campbell Justice of the Peace for Johnstone District, Upper Canada in which the Justice verifys that John's father Daniel served in the Montgomery's Highlanders. So that has been my source of confusion. Looking at an original copy of 1765 military grant by King George the Third included in John's second Petition to Government of Upper Canada it does not seem likely that the document was not his fathers though it written out to Donald Livingston rather than Daniel something which John himself explains the reason for in his petition letter included with his 1835 petition along with this rare original copy of his father 1765 land grant for land along the east side of the Hudson River in the then Province of New York. It seems pretty clear from that 1765 document in the possession in 1835 of his eldest son John in Upper Canada, that his father Daniel did serve with Frasers Highlanders and it remains a mystery why earlier information included in John's earlier 1798 petition to Government of Upper Canada includes a note from the Justice of the Peace a letter written by him verifying's John's fathers' military service during the French and Indian Wars with the Montgomery's HIghlanders unless it is a mistake or he in fact served in both regiments which may be a possibility. Perhaps at some point he transferred from one to the other. If not I can only conclude there is mistake regarding his service with the Montgomery's Highlanders at the time the first petition of Daniel's son John was written in 1798. Sorry for any earlier confusion on this but as you can see there was some justification for my earlier confusion on this point.

regards,

Donald
Canadian Livingstone
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Re: Kildalton, Argyll Livingston/es

Post by Canadian Livingstone »

Hi Brent,

The book I was thinking of was " Family History & Genealogial Record of Daniel livingston, U.E. and Some of his Descendents
Author: Edwin A. Livingston, C.D., U.E.--Henderson Printing, Brockville, Ontario, 1983 (6007.26)

This response to another person's ancestral inquiry regarding Daniel some years ago pretty much covers most of what I found out about Daniel around that time, some of which is not mentioned in Edwin Livingston's booklet. I used to have a copy of Edwin's book, but it is filed away and not precisely sure where it is now. I don't think that Edwin mentioned that Daniel's Upper Canada land petition for a land grant in upper Canada only mentioned his early pre Revolutionary War service with Montgomery's Highlanders. In his petition written after he arrived in Upper Canada in the 1790's after he left his home in New York State, he also mentioned interestingly in one of his land documents I found back then, that he joined a British Regiment during the period of Revolutionary War and most interestingly was a part of the British Army's disastrous New York Campaign of 1777 where General Burgoyne forces were eventually surrounded and defeated. This ended British efforts to capture Albany and defeat the rebels in New York State, though they would still occupy the City of New York for a few more years. Canadian descendants of Daniel apparently are considered by the United Empire Loyalist society of Canada to be legitimate and fully documented descendant of a proven American Loyalist to Great Britain during the Revolutionary War and as such are permitted by the Loyalist society to use the initials UEL at the end of their name.

I think one of our local libraries may have a copy of that Edwin Livingson. I should take another look sometime and compare the information I found from the original Upper Canada records I looked at with his book.
Canadian Livingstone wrote:Hi Eric,
Welcome the Clan Maclea Livingstone Society forum. Your ancestor Daniel Livingston was one of the earliest highland Argyllshire Livingstons to settle in Upper Canada arriving there in the 1790's. His served in the British military during the French Indian Wars in the 1750's and early 1760's as a young man, not in Frasers Highlanders but actually according to the original Upper Canada records with Montgomery's Highlanders. Once the French and Indian War ceased in the early 1760's a number of soldiers from Montgomery's Highlanders received land grants in vicinity of Argyll, Charlotte County, NY later renamed Washington County. It is believed that Daniel received a grant in the 1760's near Salem, Washington County then Charlotte County and what was later the Vermont border. Some information states his land grant was actually located in present day Vermont. As the story goes Daniel and family fled in 1771 their farm and found sanctuary in nearby Salem, Ny with friends associated the Presbyterian church there having been forced off their land by Ethan Allen and his Green Mountain Boys. From them to time of the Revolution it is assumed he and famiy were residing in the Salem, NY vicinity.

Subsequently , Daniel according to his Upper Canada records like a number of other former highland soldiers supported the British in the American Revolution and he in enlisted in a second British regiment the number of which is recorded in his Upper Canada land petition documents from the 1790's once again years later in 1777 with General Burgoynes New York military campaign. Apparently he witnessed the defeat of the British Army under General Burgoyne. Having fought in the New York Campaign with Burygoynes army somehow he somehow managed to survive the war, escape capture and persecution by local rebels in NY and returned to Charlotte County which was renamed Washington County after that victorioius American General

After the war in the 1780's he interestingly did not immediatley head to Upper Canada or Nova Scotia as a loyalist refugee but according to the records tried to purchase a farm in Argyll, Charlotte County NY around 1783 and lived there for time after the revolution in the 1780's dealing with some illness but when well enough apparently decided it wise having been a loyalist fighting against his neigbours to remove himself and his several sons and family from Charlotte County by now known as Washington County, Ny and in 1793 he petitions the Crown for a land grant. His several sons likewise petitioned the Government of Upper Canada for a loyalist land grant.

I have been unfortunately preoccupied with things off late, but am hoping to take another look at the Daniel Livingston history in regards to his military history and his land transactions in colonial America. It is believed that he received a grant which former British soldiers from the french and Indian wars were given for land around 1763 1764 in colonial period New York and possibly in Vermont. Hoping to someday find the original 1763 1764 land grant record in New York State if it exists for Daniel Livingston but that may prove to be a challenge. So far all I have verified with original documentation is that as he states in his 1793 Upper Canada land petition documents he did indeed live before settling in Upper Canada in Argyll Township, Charlotte or Washington County, New York State in the 1780's. This Argyll Township contained many who originated from the County of Argyll, Scotland. Although Daniels Upper Canada documents only state he originated in Scotland, there is every reason to believe he was highland Argyllshire Livingston origin having served with a HIghland regiment which included other Argyllshire recruits as did the other Highland regiment Fraser Highlanders in which during the French and Indian Wars several Argyllshire Livingstons served in. Despite what has been stated in the past the Upper Canada documentation with Daniels Upper land records indicates he served with MONtgomery's Highlanders rather than Frasers Highlanders durin gh the French and iNdian Wars which I found somewhat surprising.

There is information out there suggesting that Daniel was born on the Island of Islay in the early 1700's and that may be the case, but unfortunately there is really no way anyone can be absolutely certain about that. So I am afraid I cant help you with a family tree of Daniel's family prior to his probable birth in the 1730's in Argyllshire. That being said, Daniel and his sons who came up from New York State are in all likelihood one of the first highland Livingston families to settle in Upper Canada (ONtario, Canada) of that I am reasonably certain.

regards

Donald (Livingstone) Clink
Clan Maclea Livingstone Society
Historian

regards,

Donald
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