William Livingstone & Isabella Bremner

[Canadian Livingstone]

HI Wanda,

Unfortunately that is an inaccurate secondary source that is included in the Dobson book. It is correct that William Livingstone arrived in Canada in 1821 but most of his children were born after 1821 in Canada. There is no evidence that he had a son born before his eldest son Hugh in Scotland or much later in Canada. NOr is there any evidence that Isabella Livingston went by any other name than Isabella. I am not sure where that notion is found in the records.
This was a list created by someone who assumed that Jane and John were children of William Livingston and Isabella Bremner. There is no proof of that in terms of birth records and I believe there is evidence in the 1891 Canadian Census as previously mentioned that is incorrect.
Ultimately I am not being much help to anyone if i dont take the time point out any errors that I spot.

This would be my approach to a list in progress for William Livingston and Isabella Bremner and family in Canada as I am familiar with them. I would think this list a useful starting point for understanding the family in Ontario, Canada in the 1800's and then build on this.

Known Children of William Livingston and Isabella Bremner in Ontario Canada
1. Hugh Livingston b. 1816 in Scotland married Margaret Aiken (Suzanne has pointed out that Hugh was an adopted son)
2, Neil Livingston b.1824 in Canada married Anne Campbell
3. William Livingston Jr. b. ? died abt. 1852? married Jane 1832-1893 around 1850 in Lanark or Renfrew County, Ontario.
3. Margaret Livingston b. June 30 1830 in Canada married Michael McFarlane
4. George Livingston b. October 9, 1834 in Canada married Jane Bremner daughter of George Bremner Jr. in 1863
5. Ann Livingston b. April 7 1836 in Canada married H. Thibodeau abt. 1858

In addition residing with William and Isabella Livingston residence in Grattan township, Renfrew County, Ontario from 1852 to old Williams death in 1888 was
Jane Livingston b. 1832 apparently a widowed daughter in law maiden name said tobe Bremner but may not be,
John Bremner Livingston born abt. 1852 son of Jane Livingston b. 1832 and William Livingston according to J. B. Livingston, marriage reccord

regards,

Donald

[whisperingwinds]

Hi Donald

Once again, thank you for all you have done, it is greatly appreciated...

So, I think I'll add William Jr. to my tree, info unknown, and have William Sr., and Isabella as his parents, and then continue on from Willliam Sr, this is what I need to do, now, here, as you have pointed out.

It is just too bad we can't find these missing records. I did search all day, yesterday looking for a birth record on John B. Livingstone, but I can't find a one. Everything, but..... I do realize one can not find everything they are looking for, and there are recording mistakes in the census takers, etc... too bad it wasn't easier.....

But I do know, this is where John does fit in, in this Livingstone / Bremner line......

I think I read, William - 1799 ---- his father was Neil Livingstone... so, am I right, with Neil here???

Well thank you again.... Sorry to trouble you like I did, but I think you understand my confusion on this area... It is very good to have sites like this to help out. Too bad every name out there didn't have a site like this one... Looks like all of you do a great job here... and I'm glad I found it !!!!

Thank you,

Wanda

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Wanda,

Yes a great many folks with Livingston ancestry have contacted us in the last eight years or so. Our Clan Chief Baron Niall Livingstone and his cousin the late Rob Livingstone our former North American Clan Commissioner saw the need for a website and forum which persons interested in learning more about highland Clan Maclea Livingstone could gather information and share knowledge. I think it has worked pretty well. There is also a Clan Society and a Clan DNA Project to help identify and better understand possible ancestral origins and ancestral connections among Livingstones worldwide.

Suzanne contact the Society some time ago and she introduced me to the interesting origins and history of her ancestor William Livingstone and Isabella Bremner and I had been meaning to check out the Canadian Census info on the family for some time, so I am glad your contacting the forum got me going on that. I think the census records are a useful addition to the Information that Suzanne located and your info. I meant to ask what was the date and year in which John Bremner Livingston was married? You may have mentioned it but I think I missed it if so.

I realize I am on bit of shaky ground stating that there seems to have a been an additional unknown son of William Livingston and Isabella Bremner named William Livingston Jr. when there is no birth record located. But I have to believe that when your ancestor John Bremner Livingston stated that William and Jane Livingston were his parents he means the widow Jane Livingston b. 1832 residing his home aand arecorded in the 1891 Census and a William Livingston who unfortunately have no surviving record or old family tree to verify that he even existed. We do have JOhn's death record which again tells us Johns father was William Livingston. So I think was can all agree that JOhn's father was William Livingston but I agree it will be difficult to convince people without more proof that there was a William Livingston Jr. though I am pretty certain that there was and he died as a young married man around the time his son John B. Livingston was born. I do agree it will be difficult to convince others that there was a WIlliam Livingston Jr. when there are no other records or a birth reccord for him. But to be fair to argument it is John B. Livingston himself and his kin that have stated in two reccords that his father was definitely was William Livingston and I believe as I argued that almost imposible that old William Livingston Sr. b. 1799 in Scotlnad could be anything other that John B's grandfather.

regards.

Donald

[whisperingwinds]

Donald

John Bremner Livingstone -- (B - July 13, 1852 - Gratten, Ontario - D - June 30, 1931 - York, Ontario) -- Married --- Jane Hanley Mills (B - May 11,1865 - Brougham, Ontario - D - Aug. 18, 1958 - Toronto area, Ontario) -- Married on -- Dec. 23, 1880... Renfrew County, Ontario - Canada

children are...

1 - William James Livingstone - 1882 - 1964
2 - George Thompson Livingstone - 1884 - 1960
3 - Katie May Livingstone - 1886 - 1981
4 - Mary Isabell Livingstone - 1889 - 1985
5 - **Stella Patterson Livingstone - 1891 - 1985 --- MY LINK.....
6 - Robert Mills Livingstone - 1893 - 1972 -- ****NOTE**** --- HE WAS THE NEXT OF KIN ON HIS FATHERS DEATH CERTIFICATE...
7 - Margaret Edith Livingstone - 1895 - 1982
8 - Annie Elizabeth Livingstone - 1896 - 1978
9 - John Gordon Livingstone - 1899 - 1977
10 - Jennie Curtis Livingstone - 1901 - 1985
11 - Stephen Murphy Livingstone - 1903 - 1949
12 - Joseph Rae Livingstone - 1904 - 1961
13 - Arnott Hemsworth Livingstone - 1909 - 1999

This is my info, from a grand-daughter of John B. Livingstone.... and wife, Jane Mills...

Well, I would like confirmation though on William Livingstone - 1799 - parents, please.... Thank you..

Wanda

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Wanda,
I am updating this list a bit as I forgot to try and fit this additional son William Livingston Jr. that I suspect was born in the 1820's or 1830's and died around 1852. Cant be precise on his death or his birth date unfortunately.

This would be my approach to a list in progress for William Livingston and Isabella Bremner and family in Canada as I am familiar with them. I would think this list a useful starting point for understanding the family in Ontario, Canada in the 1800's and then build on it. This family model differs from other family trees in that I do not consider Jane b. 1832 or John b. 1852 to be children of old William Livingston b.1799 and his wife Isabella Bremner. In addition I am introducing an additional son William Livingston Jr. based on John Bremner Livingston's marriage record and his death record. This is my updated family of William and Isabella Bremner based upon a study of the Renfrew County, Census records, other family trees and marriage and death record of John Bremner Livingston.

Known Children of William Livingston and Isabella Bremner in Ontario Canada
1. Hugh Livingston b. 1816 in Scotland married Margaret Aiken (Suzanne has pointed out that Hugh was an adopted son)
2, Neil Livingston b.1824 in Canada married Anne Campbell
3. William Livingston Jr. b. ? died abt. 1852? married Jane 1832-1893 around 1850 in Lanark or Renfrew County, Ontario.
3. Margaret Livingston b. June 30 1830 in Canada married Michael McFarlane
4. George Livingston b. October 9, 1834 in Canada married Jane Bremner daughter of George Bremner Jr. in 1863
5. Ann Livingston b. April 7 1836 in Canada married H. Thibodeau abt. 1858

In addition residing with William and Isabella Livingston residence in Grattan township, Renfrew County, Ontario from 1852 to old Williams death in 1888 was
Jane Livingston b. 1832 apparently a widowed daughter in law maiden name said tobe Bremner but may not be,
John Bremner Livingston born abt. 1852 son of Jane Livingston b. 1832 and William Livingston according to J. B. Livingston, marriage reccord

regards,

Donald[/quote]

[jmlivingstone]

Wanda,

I don't know if this will be of any assistance to your research, it is about 50% of a family tree I came across today,

John


Family of George Bremner & Ann Farquharson, Kilmadock, Perth, Scotland.

George Bremner, b.abt. 1765 m Ann Farquharson, b.abt. 1770 @ Deanston ?, d. 1811-1821, Deanston, Kilmadock, Perth, George d. before 1834.

Children:

i. John Bremner, b.abt. 1790, Edinburgh, Scotland, probably died very young.
ii. Jean Brimner, b.abt. 1792.
iii. Isabella Bremner, b. 1793.
iv. George Bremner, b.abt. 1794.
v. Ann Bremner, b. May 1797, @ Fowlis Easter ?, Perth, Sct.
vi. Charles Bremner, b. March 1799.
vii. Elizabeth Bremner, b. 1802.
viii. John Bremner, b. Aug. 1811.
ix. David Bremner, b. 1812.

Second Generation.

Jean Brimner, b. 1792 Sct., m. 10 Apr. 1821 @ Kilmadock, Perth to Alexander McNicol, b. 1789, occ. Farmer, d. 1859. Jean d. 1860, Aldmaston Twp., Renfrew Co., Ontario. Alexander farmed @ Grattan Twp., Renfrew Co.

Children:

i. Ann McNicol b. 1821, Lanark, Ontario, m 1840 to David Gemmil, b. 1819, Lanark Co., d. 28 Mar 1893 @ Huron Co, Anne d. 1903.
ii. Margaret Mc Nicol, b.1822 Ontario, m. 1850 to James Carswell, b. 1823 Sct.
iii. Isabella McNicol, b. 1825, Lanark Co., m. George Brown b, abt 1823, Admaston Twp., Renfrew Co., d. 1886 @ Admaston Twp. Isabella d.1912, N. Dakota.
iv. Duncan McNicol, b. 1828 Lanark Twp., Ontario, occ. Farmer, m Mary McLeod, b. abt. 1830 @ Fitzroy Twp, Carelton Co., d. 1912 @ Kinburn, Ont. Duncan d. 1895 @ Admaston Twp.
v. Jane(Jean) McNicol, b. 1832, Lanark Twp., m. Robert Brown, b. 1827 @ Admanton Twp., d. 1910 @ Admanton Twp. Jane d. 1918.
vi. Elizabeth McNicol, 1835 @ Douglas, Renfrew Co., m. John Stewart, b. abt. 1834 Sct, d. 1915, Elizabeth d. 1897.

Isabella Bremner b. 1793 Port of Menteith, Perth, Sct., m. Wm. Livingstone, b. 1799 Port of Menteith, d. 1888 @ Grattan Twp. Isabella d. 14 Aug. 1876 @ Admaston Twp.

Children:

i. Hugh L, b. 1816 Inchie, Port of Menteith, m. abt. 1836 to Margaret Eliza Aitken, b. abt. 1818 Sct. D. 1889 @ Grattan Twp., Hugh d. 1892 Grattan Twp.
ii. Ann Farquharson L., b. 1822 Lanark Twp., d. before 1836 Lanark Twp.
iii. Neil L., b. 1824 Lanark Twp., m. 1850 to Ann Campbell, b. 1823, d. 1911 Grattan Twp., Neil d. 1890 Grattan Twp.
iv. Margaret L., b. 1830 Lanark Co., m. 1846 in Packenham, Ont. to Michael McFarlane, b. 1824 Ont., d. 1903. Margaret d. 1902 Douglas, renfew Co.
v. Jean L., b. 1832 Lanark Twp., d. 1893.
vi. George L., b. 09 Oct. 1834, Lanark Twp., m. 06 pr. 1863 in Renfrew Co., to Jane(Jean) Bremner, b. 1832 Lanark Twp., (daughter of George Bremner & Janet Ferguson) d. 16 Mar. 1871 @ Wicklow Twp., Hastings Co. George d. 09 Sept. 1909. George probably m. abt. three times.

vii. Ann L. b. 1836 Lanark Twp., m (1) H. Thibodeau then m. (2) Richard Smith, b, 1834, Bromley Twp., Renfrew, Co.


George Bremner, b. abt. 1794 Perthshire, m. 15 Dec. 1816 @ Port of Menteith to Janet Ferguson, b. abt. 1789 Perthshire. George d. 31 Dec. 1871. Sailed from Greenock, Scotland 19 May 1821 with family.

Children:

i. John Farquharson Brembner, b.29 Sept. 1816 Ruskie, Calziemuck, Port of Menteith.
ii. Duncan Brembner, twin to John,died in infancy in Scotland.
iii. George B, b. 12 Mar. 1818 Port of Menteith.
iv. Isobel B., b. 10 Mar. 1820 Port of Menteith, m. David Russell, b. 1807(son of James Russell & Isabella Miller), d. 1886 Pakenham, Ont., buried St.Marks Anglican, Packenham. Isobel d. 1898 Packenham, buried St Marks Anglican.
v. John B., b. 04 Jun. 1826.
vi. Janet(Jessie) B., b. abt. 1830.
vii. Ann B., b.1822 Lanark Co., never married.

Charles B., b. Mar. 1799 @ Fowlis Easter, Perthshire, occ. Farmer, m. 13 May 1821 @ Kilmadock, Perthshire, to Catherine Marshall, b.abt. 1803, d. before 1871 ?? Charles d. 26 Dec. 1887 Lanark Twp.

Children:

i. George B. b. abt. 1827.
ii. John B. 16 Sept. 1828 Lanark Twp.
iii. William B. b.19 Apr. 1831.
iv. Ann B. b. abt. 1833 Middleville, Lanark Co., buried Middleville Cemetery.
v. Jane (Jean) B., b.1835.
vi. Isabella B., b. 1837.
vii.
viii. Catherine B., b. abt. 1841, m. 25 Dec. 1841 @ Howick, Huron Co., to Andrew Lawrie, b. abt. 1841 Ont.
ix. Elizabeth B., b. 29 Oct. 1846.

Jane (Jean) B., b.1832 Lanark Twp., m. 06 apr. 1863 @ Renfrew Co., to George Livingstone (son of George L & Isabella B.) d. 09 Sept.1909, Jane d. 16 Mar.1871 @ Wicklow Twp., George married three times.

Children:

i. Charles B. b. 1835.
ii. Elizabeth B. b. 1838 @ Lanark Twp., m. 26 Nov. 1858 @ Pakenham, to Robert Wallace, b.abt. 1834 Dalhousie Twp.,(son of James Wallace & Janet Graham) Robert d. 1922, buried Elmwood Cemetery, Kars?? Ont. Elizabeth d. 07 Dec. 1911, @ Lot 19, Con 3, North Gower at time of death.
iii. Helen B., b. 1839.
iv. Sarah B., b. 1849 Ont., m. 27 Sept.1880 to David Green, occ. Farmer.

Elizabeth Bremner, b. 1802 Sct., m. 21 Mar.1831, in Brocksville, Ont., to George Cardiff, b.abt. 1806 County Carlow, Ireland, d. 18 Sept. 1885, Admaston Twp., Elizabeth d. 15 Jan.1890 & is buried Admaston Protestant Cemetery.

Children:

i. George Bremner C., b.1832, North Elms;ey, Lanark Co., d. 1915 Admaston Twp.
ii. Ann C. b. 1833 Amaston Twp., d. North Dakota, USA.
iii. Jean(Jane), b. 1837 Admaston, d. Everett, WA, USA.
iv. Mary, b. 1840 Admaston.
v. John Bremner C., b.abt. 1842 Admaston.
vi. William C. b.1844 Admaston.

John Bremner, b., Aug. 1811 Kilmadock, Perthshire, occ. farmer, m. 21 June 1841 at Pakenham to Agnes Patterson, b. 1817 Sct., d. bef. 1851. 1851 John & family lived with a John Martin & 44 year old James Bremner.

Children:

i. Mary B. b. 15 June 1842
ii. George B. b. 09 Jan. 1844.
iii. Anne B. b. 13 Jan. 1846.
iv. Jane(Jean) B. b. 06 Mar. 1848, d. 1849 Admaston Twp.
v. Archibald P. B. b. 23 May 1850.
vi. John Livingstone B. b. 23 May 1850.

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Wanda,

That marriage record you located for your ancestor John Bremner Livingston b. 1852 was a lucky break as I suspect is a complete accurate source of information regarding JOhn B.

"John B. Livingston 28 farmer Grattan S/o of William and Jane Livingston married Jane Hunby Mills 16 Brougham Grattan d/o of James and Catharine Mills Witnesses: John McFarlane and Christian Anderson both of Grattan 23 December 1880.

This death information verifies that JOhn B. Livingston was the son of William and Jane Livingston and that he was born in year 1852. July 13,1852 according to the 1901 Canadian Census.

I want to prove that Old WIlliams wife Isabella could not be the mother of John B. Livingston.
Proof that Isabella Livingston was not John's mother
1. 1880 marriage record of JOhn B. Livingston and his death record which refers to her as Jane.
2. Isabella died in 1876 and her tombstone can be seen online. Later in the 1891 Census John B. LIvingston householder at Grattan Township, Renfrew County states that Jane Livingston b. abt. 1832 residing with he and his family is infact is a widow and his mother, so it could not be William Livingston's wife Isabella Bremner who died in 1876 that was his mother and that she also went by the name Jane. Your ancestor John B. Livingston clearly indentifies the 59 year old Jane Livingston residing with him and his family as his mother in the 1891 Census. See 1891 Census Info I provided earlier in one of my earlier postings.

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Wanda,
Apparently not alot is known of the Livingston family line prior to the birth of William Livingston to Neil Livingston and Margaret Woodhouse in Perthshire. We do know that this Perthshire Livingston family is definitely of Highland Maclea Livingstone origin like other families who originated in Western Argyllshire ancestral homeland of the Livingstons.

Neil Livingston and Margaret Woodhouse were the parents of William Livingston who born at Port of Montieth, Perthshire, scotland in 1799. William married Isabella Bremner b.1793, April 1, 1821 at the Port of Monteith, Perthshire. George Bremner Sr. was President of the Doune Emigration Society of Deanston by Doune. which was a mill town in Perthshire. THere were a number of these emigration societies formed to help assist and organize those planning to emigrate to Lanark County, Ontario. Your ancestor William Livingston married Isabella Bremner daughter of George Bremner Sr. and ended travelling with them and his son George Bremner Jr. and others in the Doune Emigration Society and sailed to the port of Quebec in Lower Canada aboard the David of London in May of 1821. From there they would have made their way to Upper Canada and they took up settlement in Lanark Township, Lanark County . Later by abt. 1850 Wiliam and Isabella Livingston and family were residing in Grattan Township, Renfrew County, ONtario. More info on this family in earier postings on the Clan Society Forum.
regards,

Donald

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Wanda,
I dont know if you are familiar with this old cemetery in Renfrew County where some of your old kin were buried but I thought you might this of interest.
IN Admaston Cemetery in Renfrew County, Ontario some of your ancestors and their connected Bremner kin are buried there. Here are two I am aware of. Seems like there are alot of Bremners buried there. Dont know how many Livingstons are buried there as yet.

In memory of Isabella Bremner, Wife of William Livingstone died AUgust 11, 1876 83 years.

Also this old timer who was Isabella's brother.

In memory of George Bremner died December 31, 1871 77 years (George Bremner Jr.)
A Native of Perthshire, Scotland

These two old cemetery stones are apparently in excellent condition considering their age.

regards,

Donald

[livingstoneancestry]

Hi donald and wanda

I was hoping to possibly get up to Renfrew this year but unfortunately it'll be another year or two. I really want to go to that cemetery in Adamaston where several of them are buried. Below is a link I found for the cemetery photos online. it looks like they have photos of 10 Bremner stones and at least 6 Livingstone stones, although some are the same. I'm also including the Bremner family link I found online. I do have a copy of William's birth record from perthshire scotland and a copy of his marriage record to Isabella Bremner in Perthshire, Both documents can be found on the 3rd link. There also maybe some info on both the Livingstone and Bremner family in a couple of small books, I believe called the founding families of ..... (maybe one of the county districts)

I was able to locate a family tree for the Woodhouse branch, and have the names of Margaret's parents, and then I think the tree goes off onto her mom's side of the family. donald you're very right, I've had the hardest time finding anything on Neil, his birth record or his death record. The Scottish records around this time were incomplete from what I was finding, especially regarding Neil's birth and I'm stuck on going back any further at this time and have been stuck for a while. That was one of the reason I sponsored my brother for the DNA testing project to see who else we might be related to

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.anc ... /index.htm
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~onlan ... remner.htm
http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/

Suzanne