William Livingstone & Isabella Bremner

[whisperingwinds]

Dear John, Donald & Suzanne,

WOW !!! Is all I can say !!! I sure wasn't expecting all of this, but this is all fantastic stuff here...

I will definately read / check all of this stuff, better, and add it to all of my files...

John, thank you for this list on the Bremner family, and Donald and Suzanne, thanks for all the info, and the help.... It really is greatly appreciated.. Trust me.... Doanld, you were a big help in all you looked up for me, and informed me about. In return, I do suppose you found a new family to add to your own files.. I wonder if there is any more that are missing, that you don't know about. I knew this threw you a curve ball, but, somehow I feel, you like the challenge...

I will definately look up all of these sites, and yes, I would be very interested to see this Admaston cemetary plots.. This is very interesting, also....

I am really happy, I came to this site and found all of you ! You guys are great!!

Funny you are having a hard time with Williams father, Neil. I thought Neil was a brother, to Dr. David Livingstone!!

Thank you all once, again, hopefully we will find something, one day on Williams missing children.... Those days, people had like 10 or more kids, each.. Yes I guess I was lucky finding John Bremner Livingstones, marriage and death record, but I was hoping to find his birth record, but ancestry doesn't seem to offer that for that year. I wish they did.. I guess I should be happy with what I have... And I am...

Well, thank you all, again.. You are going to keep me busy for afew days, more.. I have been going gun ho over these past 3 - 4 days, all day, to see if I can find anything else. But, nothing new, just what I already have..

Now, thanks to all of you, I have more, than what I did, a week ago...

Thank you,

Wanda

[whisperingwinds]

Hi Suzanne

I tried the scottish site to access the marriage certificate of William & Isabella and the birth records, as you did suggest. for some reason, it can't find the info..
it keeps coming up blank, no match..

Seems like a pretty good site though..

Thanks,
Wanda

[livingstoneancestry]

Hi Wanda

If you want you can send me an email and I'll forward you a copy of what I have for the certificates. I tried a little bit last night again thru the Scotland website but am not having much luck. I found a couple of family trees for Dr david Livingston(e) online and it does show he has both a brother and his father as Neil. But neither matches William's father. Unless someone did a really good job somewhere of keeping a copy of the records and passed it down one of the branches.

I know I sponsored my brother for the DNA testing and we have one fairly decent match with someone who has a relative born around 1774 possibly from Ft William, although its been mentioned that he may not have been from Ft William itself. He also says he's related to dr David Livingstone possibly but isnt sure how either. Sometimes I wonder if the family figures since they have the same name we must be related..... The fact that our DNA doesnt match as closely to Dr David's Livingstone's line definitely does say a fair amount.

One other thing I noticed when looking at the family names for William and Isabella and Neil & Margaret's children.... they all used pretty much the same names. not too much variance. no Alexander, Angus, Agnes, Catherine, Donald, Duncan or David. They also dont appear to have used the Scottish tradition of naming patterns. If they had, William's fathers name should be William not Neil. If I were to take a lucky guess Neil's fathers name is one of the following: William, John, James or Niel (probably not Niel)

Suzanne

[livingstoneancestry]

I did a little more checking on FamilySearch and ScotlandPeople. found a few possibilities for Neil's parents. Neil still doesnt show up anywhere for a birth or christening record. Or death record for that matter....

Again I have no way of knowing if any of these is correct or really possible without finding a connection, unless of course like with John B Livingstone, Neil Livingston is the missing child with no record. The other thing being, these all appear to be lowland families

William Livingston and Isabel bremner (Brebner) had a child in 1764 (a girl I believe) and were in the Nigg, Kincardine area of Scotland (this one was interesting because of the Bremner connection showing again)

John Livingston and Ann Wilson had 2-3 children between 1760-1770 and they were from Greenock, Renfrew, scotland

John Livingston and Mary McCurry also have children around that same time and were also from Greenock, Renfrew, scotland

thanks, Suzanne

[whisperingwinds]

Hi Suzanne

INteresting, to say the least... keeps one busy, that's for sure..

I also do know the gov't hasn't made public all records, for everyone, as yet... And this can be another block.. But I do hear they are working on it...

I find it funny you can't verify neils, lineage. I really did think, this Neil was a brother to David Livingstone, from all the stuff I have read..

As I did say earlier, I was always told that John Bremner Livingstone really was a second cousin to David LIvingstone. Even one of his own daughters, my link, made this claim, as her father told them all.. All her life, this whole family was aware of it and proud of it... of this fact, and I really do tend to believe family and family records, first, if available, before any found record. Family bibles, regarding family trees, eg.. dates/names/births of all family members recorded in a family bible, on a piece of paper, or even word of mouth, history handed on down to new family members, so one remembers and doesn't forget. This is why I really do want to believe John B. Livingstones death record and the claims made as to who his parents were. One of his own sons, made the claim. Who else better to know this info, other than his own children... The children of John B. LIvingstone should know the names of their parents - parents.... Who else would know best.... I know my parents - parents names, on boths side of my family as I am sure you do also, with yours, and everyone else on this planet I'm sure does also.....


I know Donald did alot of work here with my situation, and I am really glad he took the time, and helped me out.. But with this marriage / death record I now do have, to me, I really do feel, gut feeling, after reading what I have read, I feel, William LIvngstone father a child by Isabellas sister, Jane Bremner.. And this is why I think Jane (Bremner) Livingstone lived with William - 1799 -- till his death... Only after his death did she move in with John Bremner Livingstone.. And to me, this is why he has both of his parents born in scotland, as both of these people were. I think Jane stayed living with them because of this, and when Isabella died, Jane probably had full reign of the house, up until Williams death. They probably hid the truth of an affair, by William and Jane Bremner, by keeping Jane in their house hold, with their son, John Bremner Livingston... They kept the secret.... Age.... to conceive a child, it doesn't matter how old a man is, the man can be 70, the baby does not come out of a man... It only depends on the womens age, but in those days. people didn't know what we know now. In those days, women had babies till they died, pretty well.. Well, this is really what I do see, after all I did read, and found, as I like to keep all documents I found, more, as my proof.. Infidelity..... It does happen, we all know, especially if a man has another women living in his own home, no matter who that person may be, this story is as old as the hills..... This is how I really do feel here, Regarding John Bremner Livingston, but as alot of people, they want proof. If someone hide the truth from everyone, no one will ever find it..

But, I have added a William Jr., to my tree site as Donald suggested.... Though I do have a different view on this here. But, I will give it a chance to be true.... Donald has no proof to a William Jr., and I have no proof of infidelity.. Maybe we never will.....

But all in all, my John Bremner Livingstone, I do feel 100 %, in my heart, does belong in this spot, to rise and shine.. Maybe I am the only one looking for this man, I don't know.. but maybe .... I really do think I found his place, but as to what exact spot --- ?????

It is most unfortunate, Neil, Williams father is such a task.... I never realized... I felt the LIvingstone tree would be the most easiest to do of all the trees I am involved in, but it proved to be a brick wall for me.. Especially since David Livingstones whole family tree is on line, for everyone to see.. I really thought it would be a sinch..... I really thought Neil, father of William, 1799, was a brother to David Livingstone.... As I said, John B. Livingstone, is known , to all of his own children, to be a direct descent of davids - a second cousin..... And I feel I would take family history confirmation, records handed down as my proof, wheather proven or not... family..... this is the key.... all records, or I should say, are handed down over the generations, one way or another, even if it is only by word of mouth.. This is how alot of it was done... So one will know.... We all have a rich family history, no matter who you are, and everyone, no matter who you are, we were all told stories, of things, and of what things use to be. There's ones proof, who would know better, family - history - or documents, well, maybe alittle bit of both... But word of mouth, proven or not, can also be very important.

Well this is my own theory..... But, as I did say earlier, I already added a William Jr. to my ancestry site, as Donald does suggest.. Though there is no proof he ever did exist either... Will we ever know ??

David Livingstone.. You would think to link this man to your Neil would be easy... There is a ton of info on the net, as I am sure you all are aware of, long ago... a full complete family tree, for DAvid Livingstone...

I have spent most of this past week, all gung ho on these Livingstones, I was even dreaming of them... lol...

I really am interested in these documents, on William & Isabella I can't seem to find.. Yes I would be very happy if you could send them to me... my e-mail you requested, is as follows...

wanda.whisperingwinds.comeaumc@gmail.com --- I know it is long, but this is me... I am different... I am not like regular people.... lol...


Thank you,
Wanda

[whisperingwinds]

Suzanne

One more note --- you said you found a record of William & Isabella having a daughter in 1764.. I was thinking about this...... William & Isabella did not get married until 1821, the same year they immigrated.. And it is also known, Isabella was married before, as she had her son Hugh, by her first husband, so I was thinking ... How could this be, especiaLLY WHEN ISABELLA WAS BORN, in 1793 and William, born, in 1799.... This would make this daughter born, before her own parents were born...

Wanda

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Suzanne,

Knowing the history of our highland Maclea Livingstons who resided in Western Argyllshire for hundreds of years and given that the DNA tests indicate that your Livingston ancestor Willliam Livingston was genetically linked to a dominant group of Maclea Livingstones that resided in the 18th century in Mull and neighbouring Morvern Parish in Western Argyll, my guess would be that William's father or grandfather originated from a family that lived in Western Argyllshire as others with similiar DNA results. I dont know when your Livingstons first arrived in Perthshire, but the dna tests make it quite clear that William's Maclea- Livingstones almost certainly were descendants of Maclea-Livingstones who resided in the 18th century and long before that in the ancestral homeland of Western Argyllshire. You may have noticed that a significant number of the Livingstones whose results were similar to your relative had some information of their ancestor originating in Argyllshire or having a connection to Mull, Argyllshire. They may not be neccessarily closely related but perhaps share a distant ancestor from the area. Andrew has identified this particular group which includes your ancestor and mine and that of others who have a relative in the DNA Project. I do suspect that your Livingston family must of have left highland Argyllshire now earlier than the 1750's when there began to be widespread usesage of the name Livington or Livingstone instead of old clan name of Maclea or Maconlea. FOr this reason I would suspect there is very good chance that William's father Neil or Williams grandfather was born in Argyllshire to an Argyllshire Maclea-Livingstone family and like many Livingstons in the latter part of the 1700's started to migrate to other Counties in Scotland where there was employment working in Mills. There is little doubt from the DNA results that Willliam's family likely migrated to Perthshire from Argyllshire in search of employment. I dont know anything about the Port of Monteith Perthshire or why the family was there around 1799 but Deanston by Doune where the Bremners resided around 1821 before they left for Canada was apparently a mill town or I say Doune was.

Dr. Livingstone's grandfather Neil Livingtone left his highland home in 1792 on the island of Ulva In Argyllshire in 1792 to work at the Mill of the Monteith family in Lanarkshire in lowland Scotland and a number of other Livingstons found work in Lanarkshire in the late 1700's and early 1800's apparently. Poverty and clearances forced a number of highlanders to look for work in the lowlands or emigrate to the colonies.

regards,

Donald

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Wanda and Suzanne,

I mentioned this some time ago but Wanda may not be familiar with this.
From the Passenger List of the David of London PRO CO 42/189 ff 512-69
This is summarized list from that. The complete list apparently includes other family members recorded and their ages and a record of payment in the original document. This would be available in the Public Records Office which is in England. Unfortunately the above info does not give the specific page number of this document which might be a problem when requesting the document.
Sailed from Greenock,Scotland to Quebec on May 19,1821
David of London, David Gemil Master
Emigration Society
Deanston by Doune
George Bremner
George Bremner Jr.
Charle Bremner
Alexander McNichol
William Livingston

I believe that George Bremner Sr. was the President of the Deanston by Doune Emigration Society. THere were a number of these Emigration Societie aboard the David of London a other ships in 1821 that brought settlers to QUebec on there way to Lanark County, Upper Canada where the Bremners and Livingstons first settled in 1821.

regards,

Donald

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Wanda,

I understand the frustration at all this family history related confusion. In having researching many families I have hit a number of genealogy dead ends, road blocks and many annoyances both major and minor which have either slowed down or made progress impossible. Still sometimes you get a lucky break from time to time that makes all the frustration somehow worth the effort. I would agree with you that logic dictates that we consider the distinct possibility that the fact that both John b. and his family in marriage and death record are stating that John Bs parents were named William and Jane that his parents were very likely named William and Jane Livingston even though there is not a paper trail of old documents from the mid 1800's to confirm the existence of a young couple named WIlliam and Jane Livington married and residing in Grattan Township, Lanark County. My sense is that we are on the right track and that you having located two original family documents stating William and Jane Livington were John B's parents that is likely the correct information. I am hoping we can find out what Church the Livingstons attended when they first resided in Canada in Lanark Township, Lanark County, UPper Canada. I can then determine whether or not ministers births and marrriage records survived.

BY the way did you notice on John B. Livingstone's death record in 1930 or whenever he died if it recorded what township, village or COunty in Ontario where he was born? Maybe you could check this info. I wanted to be certain he was born in Renfrew County rather than Lanark COunty or elsewhere in Ontario. I assumed he was born in Renfrew County but that may not be the case. Just another detail worth making a note of.

regards,

Donald

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Suzanne and Wanda,

I am doing a bit of reconstructing and piecing together bits of information. I am pretty certain William's brothers James and John both resided in Stirling Parish, Stirlingshire after leaving Perthshire.

Neil Livington and Margaret Woodhouse Port of Monteith, Perthshire
1. John Graham Livingston b. 1795 Port of Monteith, Perthshire died 1869 Stirling Parish, Stirlingshire and Catharine McGrigor John's Parents recorded on death record Neil Livingston and Margaret (cant read last name) Sure enough the 1861 Census indicates that John was born at Port of Monteith, Perthshire abt. 1796 or 1795. Kind of narrows it down.The age on his death record appears to be wrong. She died sometime after 1861.
2. James Livingston b. 1797 Port of Monteith d. January 15, 1877 Stirling Parish, Stirlingshire, married Jane/Jean Duncanson o fKincardine Parish March 7th 1819 at Port of Monteith, Perthshire Father recorded in death record: Neil Livingston Shepherd mother not listed Jane born abt. 1798 died Aug. 32, 1866 Stirling Parish, Stirlingshire,Scotland
3. William Livingston b.1799 Port of Monteith, Perthshire, d. Feb. 19.1888 Admaston, Renfrew County married Isabella Bremner April 4, 1821 at Port of Monteith, Perthshire

This compares with another list that stated John Graham Livingston b. July 5, 1795, james LIvingston b. James 18, 1797 and WIlliam Livingston b. January 6, 1799 all at Port of Monteith, Perthshire were children of Neal Livingston and Margaret Woodhouse.



Does this make any sense Suzanne?

We infact know that there were a small number of Livingston families possibly related apparently of highland origin residing around Port of Monteith around this time that are also likely of highland Argyllshire Livingston origin


Family No. 2
John Livingston and Flora MacDonald
married March 1, 1801
Isobel Livington b. March 22, 1802
Duncan Livingston Feb. 1 1804
Donald Livingston January 24, 1806
Flora Livingston December 24, 1811
Hugh Livingston December 21, 1808

Family no. 3
Daniel Livingston and Christian McKericher
married 06/04/1804

Family No. 4
Donald Livingston and Christian McFarlane
Janet Livingston b. May 14, 1805

Family No. 5
Neil Livingston and Katrine McFarlan
married 29/11/1806

Dont know if any of these other families married at Port Monteith have any connection to the family of Neil Livingston and Margaret Woodhouse but it is interesting that all these Livingston begin to show up in the Port of Monteith parish records no earlier that the 1790's almost as if they arrived in the Port Monteith area of Perthshire not much earlier than the late 1700's. I suspect their Livingston families migrated to Perthshire in the 1780's from highland Argyllshire but there is no surviving documentation on that.


regards,

Donald