William Livingstone & Isabella Bremner

[whisperingwinds]

Hi Donald....

Thanks for responding...

On John B. Livingstones death certificate, for place of birth it just says Ontario, and that he's lived there all of his life..

However, on his marriage license, it says place of birth was Gratten, Renfrew Co., Ontario.. i have tried to look it up afew times already with no luck, as of yet... Through ancestry, what they offer, seems like birth registrations for his year of birth (1852), are not available. I couldn't find this one, just these other 2... Seems like you can find like 1860 and on, but not earlier... I had another idea where to look again, but probably won't pan out, I don't know.

I have seen something on this ship list before, of the David of London, but i do not think it was an origianl copy...

I did try to send John B. LIvingstones death certificate to this site, one day last week, for you to see, with a note, but I am unsure if it actually went through or not.. It seems like it sent, but I really could not tell.. So I am clueless..

I thought for sure, William, 1799, was a nephew to Dr. David., Liv.... I thought his brother Neil, was Willaims father.. I think i remember seeing David had a brother Neil... Good thing, you let me know, or i would of had some corrections on my tree to be making.

Well, I really wished I could find a birth record, here, in this case... I went all gung ho on that exact same thing for two days straight, but came up empty.

I wonder, you talk about church records... Have you any idea if the very first church / churches to that area at that time are even still standing.. -- presbyterian, is what this line is, i am sure you already know, though, anyway.. There probably was just one chruch in town, if it was made up of all scottish families..

Tomorrow i think maybe I might try to see if I can check into early / first known churches, etc..see if anything pops up..

I will try again... If I do find anything, I will let you know..

thanks for this info here you sent.....

I don't know what all of you guys know, about these Livingstones, here, so, your site does provide insite to where either one does belong, or not.. Your record volume, must be fantastic..

I am relying on your word with the info you sent... I am changing some stuff on my ancestry site, to make it all fit right..

well, I am doing as you do suggest, so, don't worry.. I am listening.....

Thanks,

Wanda

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Wanda,

We know the lot and concession number of their farms in both Lanark Township, Lanark County and later when they moved to Renfrew Township, Renfrew County so someone in one of the local historical societies in Lanark and Renfrew County, Ontario might have a good idea which Presbyterian Church William and Isabella and family attended and most importantly whether ministers records both births and marriage records survived. Before the mid 1850's with the old Upper Canada/Canada West records it is a bit hit and miss regarding finding your ancestors birth or marriage record that was recorded in an register book at the time. Some these entry books survived and local historians and genealogists have made and effort to copy them, others were simply lost by the Presbyterian circuit minister or destroyed long ago. Based on his marriage record and the 1901 census it appears that John Bremner Livingston was born July 13, 1852. So much of these birth and marriage records were copied and are now available on line through the LDS familysearch.org for example but many birth and marriage records that have not survived of course will not be found. It just often a matter of luck with the old Ontario records.

regards,

Donald

[whisperingwinds]

Hi Donald

Yes I do realize these things do happen, sad to say... I will keep trying. I will also see if I can check out to see if I can find a church. I am sure there was only one, unless all of you here already done so, and can't find anything. Church records must have been transferred to a different church, if this church closed up, or whatever.. But, didn't these churches send their records to eg.. Toronto, to the gov'ts head quarters, like they do now?? Some are on file, but you have to pay for a copy.. How far back the gov'ts files go, I have no idea.. But I really don't think the ontario gov't have any birth records, before 1860, it looks like to me.. Either that, or they just haven't made them public yet..

Have you already looked into this stuff, and came up empty?

I haven't quit had a chance to get to this today, but i will soon..

Wanda

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Wanda,
There were some serious disagreements within the Church of Scotland community in Scotland and elsewhere including Canada earlier in the 19th century and as result in mid 19th century Ontario towns you will find that there was more than one Presbyterian congregation, just to make things more complicated. Later in the 19th century I think they all amalgamated into the PResbyterian Church of Canada. Then 1925 a large number of Presbyterians in Canada decided apon amalgamation with the Methodist Church of Canada to form one Church organization in Canada which became the United Church of Canada. There were however some Presbyterians who didnt like this idea and as a result there are still lots of Presbyterian Congregations and a Presbyterian CHurch organizatio still in Canada. I think today the Presbyterian Archives in Canada has a collection of the some of the old 19th church records that have submitted to them over the years. The United Church of Canada Archives I think has some old Presbyterian church records as well. The ONtario Archives has also a great many of the surviving old PResbyterian Church records on microfilm reels and likely indexed by County and township. As I said once the church congregation has been indentified that your Livingstons and Bremners attended in Lanark County and Renfrew County, it should be relatively easy to determine whether the birth and marriage records from the 1830's to the 1850's survive today.

Anyways in answer to your earlier question at the time in which you are looking for information on your family in Lanark County or Renfrew County where they later lived as I as understand it the early Presbyterian ministers did not submit their birth, baptimal, marriage or death records to any head office of their Presbyterian Church. That is one of the reason why so many of the records were lost and why in ONtario it is so much easier to find birth and marriage records after the 1850's when a more serious effort was made to collect and register this information in a organized manner. I will see what I can find out regarding a church in the area where they lived in Grattan Township, Renfrew County in the 1850's.

regards,

Donald

[whisperingwinds]

Hi Donald...

Thanks...

It is really ashame. how records of that era can be lost...

but, i am use to this with my own family tree, records were purposely destroyed..

i can't seem to find, as i said before, any birth records for ontario, prior to 1860.. i really do not think ontario either doesn't have them or they never cataloged them yet...

i have check into births alittle bit for thid area and this tim frame, still no luck..

wanda

[whisperingwinds]

Donald

one more note, has no info ever been found, at all on williams father, neil -- his lineage line, at all ???

just wondering.... as i really thought this neil was a brother to david livingstone..


wanda

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Wanda,
I am sorry to tell you this.
Regarding the father of William Livingston 1799-1888 who was Neil Livingston who lived at Port of Monteith, Perthshire at the time of William's birth with other Livingstons.
Nothing much is known regarding William's father Neil Livingston and his Livingston kin who were at Port of Monteith, Perthshire in late 1700's and early 1800's, but is pretty certain that he was not Dr. David Livingstone's Uncle or Great Uncle or related to Dr. Livingstone or his family, despite your family tradition to the contrary. Regarding Dr. Livingstone's family he had two surviving brothers John 1811-1899 who had large family in Listowel,Perth County, Ontario and a brother Charles 1823-1873 who had a daughter and son who had no children. Dr. Livingstone's father was actually Neil Livingston born in 1788 on the Isle of Ulva,Argyllshire. Dr. Livingstone did not have a brother named Neil. We also know from Maclea Livingtone Society DNA test results that William Livingston's descendants and this family line are not in any way related to Dr. Livingstone or his relatives. So the answer is unfortunately that there is no evidence to support the notion that your Livingstons are related to Dr. Livingstone's family.

Actually there are lots and lots of birth and marriage records from the early 1800's to mid 1800's from Townships and Counties throughout Upper Canada, Canada West (Ontario) in the Ontario Archives collections in Toronto and some have published in book form and housed in the Ontario Genealogical Society Library at the North York Public Library in Toronto. But there is quite a bit that was not saved and for whatever reason was lost. I dont think that the records you are looking for survived the 19th century but I am not 100 per cent certain.Your best bet might be contacting the Refrew County/Ottawa branch of the Ontario Genealogical Society or an Upper Ottawa Valley Genealogy Group expert who is familiar with the church records of Grattan Township.

The Refrew County Historical Atlas map from the 1880's should indicate where the nearest Presbyterian Church was located near where they living in Grattan Township in the mid 1800's in Renfrew County. The township maps are detailed concession and lot number maps which include Churchs schools etc. Some of the better libraries may have copies of these ONtario County Historical atlases but you wont find them in every library. They were reprinted in the 1970's I think. I think that William and Isabella Livingston were located on a farm at Concession 6 Lot 7 in Grattan Township, Renfrew County, but I have not verified that with the 1880's Renfrew County Historical Atlas which should list William Livingston on the Grattan Township map if he is lived on that lot before his death in 1888. I also noticed that a location of Scotch Bush is mentioned for William and Isabella Livingston in Grattan Township and was apparently a Presbyterian Church with that name but I dont know anything about it or if it is the Church they attended. Isabella died in 1876 and is buried in Admaston Cemetery and I think her husband he died in 1888 may also be buried there. I have seen a photo of Isabellas gravestone but that of Williams. I dont know where Admaston is in relation to where they lived in Grattan Township but that is where someone who resides in Renfrew County or Grattan Township can better assist you on that.

Should be on that map in that old atlas. Useful for locating where an ancestor lived if you know the Concession and lot number in a particular Ontario Township. I really think your next step should be contact a Renfrew County genealogy expert who will be familiar with Grattan Township Scots.

regards,

Donald

[jmlivingstone]

Wanda/Donald,

Some info on Neil Livingstone & Margaret Woodhouse;

1. This is only a possibility, 28 March 1773, Margaret Woodhouse b. at Falkirk, Stirlingshire (OPR 479/00 0040 0403), parents Ralph Woodhouse & Margaret Graham.

Up until 1855, only three Margaret Woodhouses were registered, this is the only one who fits into the correct timescale. Also one of Margarets sons was named John Graham Livingstone, her possible mothers name was also Graham, this is far from confirmation of my theory, but could be worth further investigation.

2. Neil Livingstone & Margaret Woodhouse m. at Port of Menteith, 02 July 1792, (OPR marriages 388/00 0010 0489).

3. Children listed John Graham Livingstone, b. 05 July 1795, (OPR 388/00 0010 0297) / William Livingstone, b. 06 Jan. 1799, (388/00 0010 0315) / Marion Livingstone, b. 25 July 1801 (OPR 388/00 0010 0327).

John

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi John, Wanda and Suzanne,

The Woodhouse family connection with the Livingstons is clearly at Port of Monteith and not before that.

As you mentioned John, Neil Livingstone and Margaret Woodhouse married 02/07/1792 at Port of Monteith, Perthshire

The Livingston records in Port Monteith do no begin before the late 1700's. Some of these Livingstons seem to have arrived at Port of Monteith around the same time and may be related. The Woodhouse family or at least one Woodhouse family was at Port of Monteith from at least the 1750's. Your hunch regarding John Graham Livingston's middle name is probably correct as there is a marriage record for one Woodhouse married at Port of Monteith, Ralph Woodhouse married Margaret Graham 06/11/1755. That matches the parents recorded in Stirlingshire for a Margaret Woodhouse born 1873. It appears that Ralph and Margaret Woodhouse were residing at Port of Monteith in the late 1700's and early 1800's when the Livingstons were living there though Margaret their daughter was born in Stirlingshire. Woodhouse is primarily an English name but there a number of them in Lowland Counties of Scotland. Margaret's brother William Woodhouse was born 07/06/1759 at Port of Monteith.

Neil Livingstone and Margaret Woodhouse of Port Monteith, Perthshire married July 2, 1792
andhad four children that we know of
1. John Graham Livingston 1795-1869 m. Catharine McGrigor (later resided Stirling Parish, Stirlingshire)
2. James Livingston 1797-1877 and Jean/Jane Duncanson m.1819 Port of Monteith (later resided in Stirling Parish, Stirlingshire)
3. William Livingston 1799-1888 and Isabella Bremner m. 1821 Port of Monteith (settled Lanark County, Upper Canada 1821)
4. Marion Livingston b.1801

Ralph Woodhouse and Margaret Graham married 06/11/1755 Port of Monteith,Perthshire
1. Ann Woodhouse b. 02/01/1757 Falkirk, Stirlingshire
2. William Woodhouse b.07/06/1759 Port of Monteith, Perthshire
3. Janet Woodhouse b.07/02/1762 Falkirk,Stirlingshire
4. James Woodhouse b.08/07/1764 Falkirk,Stirlingshire (two conflicting dates?)
5. James Woodhouse b.11/06/1766 Falkirk,Stirlingshire
6.Margaret Woodhouse b.28/03/1773 Falkirk, Stirlingshire

I should mention John that a descendant of Neil Livingstone and Margaret Woodhouse is a participant in the DNA Project and the results confirm a connection to the our highland group with many of a Mull, Argyllshire origin. So my hunch is that this Livingston family is not connected to old lowland Livingston families and a branch of the Linllithgo lowland Livingstons that resided well before 1750 in certain parts of Perthshire. Neil Livingston seemed to have arrived at Port Monteith

regards,

Donald

[whisperingwinds]

Hi Donald and John


Thank you for your help and the info you offered... Donald, I will try to check into the things you do suggest here. Thank you... You really know alot on all of these topics you mentioned, I am impressed..

John, thank you also.... I have seen, already, on ancestry.ca, someone actually is doing or has done, a tree for William Livingstones parents, and who ever this person is, they seem to have alot done on there.. But to me, just names, and not much info is all I did see...... It does look good though...

All help is very much appreciated.. thank you...

I will continue to see if this brick wall can come tumbling down, but I think, if you guys are stuck, I will probably be in line with you all..

Thank you for the good advice and info...

See what we get...

Wanda