Tartan Signatory

[Bachuil]

I have just edited this post which I originally titled Chiefs of Highland and Lowland Livingstones c1745 as it was rather out of context. We have two threads on Tartans - so I thought I would start a new one in response to the question posed by Donald and others as to which chief may have signed the swatches of tartan submitted - highland or lowland.  In this lengthy posting I come to the very tenatative conclusion that, on balance, it was more likely to be highland. The Abbey lands were at one time vast, including the ancient parish of Lismore which embraced Appin and Eilean Mund.

[Kyle2 MacLea]

Very interesting, Niall, and of course very likely a correct conclusion, based on what I can see/read. Of course, it would still be fascinating to actually see a picture of the seal and tartan sample for Livingstone, and the name of the Chief involved.

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Niall, Perhaps AListair MacDonnell of the Highland Society of London in 1815 was familiar with or knew your great-grandfather and the Highland Livingstones and their history in Argyll. They were both of Jacobite families that had been at Culloden in 1746. I would think if so that your great-great grandfather would certainly have been contacted. I can't say whether the Lowland Livingstones were contacted. regards Donald

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi All, I think there is little doubt that if in fact Colonel Alistair MacDonnell of the Highland Society of London contacted the Highland Livingstones (formerly known as Maconlea/MacLea) regarding their tartan, it would have been Baron John Livingstone who would have submitted a swatch of fabric to the Society in 1815 or thereabouts. While John Livingstone represented Highland Clan Livingstone as you all recall he was born John Maconlea in 1746. His father before him, Baron Duncan Maconlea who died in 1780, had managed to survive the Jacobite revolt in Argyll with his head intact and had somehow successfully managed the monumental task of convincing the Maconleas in his area of influence to abandon their ancient name to that of a lowland family named Livingstone before the 1770's. So assuming that Baron John Livingstone was contacted by the Society and submitted a tartan swatch of what became known to us as Ancient Livingstone 1003 around 1815, there remains a question of the antiquity and origin of this fragment.

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi All, Sorry that should read in paragraph 4: "presumingly there was no tartan fabric found" between 1746-1782". Sorry about that. regards Donald

[Bachuil]

This reminds me of a brief newspaper article about a fancy dress ball in Glasgow a long time ago in which the comment is made that one of the guests went as Baron John. Perhaps he had a higher profile than I realised as not only did a guest go as this character but this was singled out for comment. I can't recollect the details - but will post more if I can.

[James Stewart McLay]

Hello Niall, Thanks for the additional info.in your posting. Donald has certainly done a great deal of research into the History and Origin of the Tartan. No doubt he will want to pursue this further. The information I supplied was from an information sheet I obtained from the Museum of Scottish Tartans in Comrie, Perthshire, back in 1987. So I can take little credit for my input. Incidentally, The following year, during a day trip to Lismore, I had the good fortune to meet your parents on the ferry crossing from Port Appin. Owing to the inclement weather and the fact that it was the old ferry, we were all huddled together for shelter in the bow of the vessel,together with my little folding cycle. I was very kindly invited to their home for coffee and enjoyed a splended day visiting all the local sites. Along with a letter of thanks for their kind hospitality during my visit, I sent a copy of the Tartan information sheet. regards, Stewart.

[Bachuil]

Stewart, I knew the late Gordon Teall of Teallach (the fellow behind the tartan museum at Comrie).

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Stewart, Well I may have pursued this thing to the level of a personal obsession, but without the vital clue you furnished us I would never have

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Niall, I am sure we all look forward to this and any other information you can uncover regarding Baron John and other Barons of Bachuil. One question I mean't to ask in the past is whether or not your family keeps an archives with the private papers and records of your Baron ancestors. My mother was a Bryson and her ancestor long ago lived on the Dobbs estate near Carrickfergus, Northern Ireland. As current Sir Richard DObbs and his ancestors have lived on the Dobbs Estate since the late 1500's there is mountain of private papers at the Northern Ireland Public Records Office that will take me two lifetimes to go through. I wouldn't know for certain, but I would think that Baron John was held with the same esteem and respect in the highland community as the current Baron and as I said before it seems unlikely that Alistair MacDonnell of Glengarry of the Highland Society of London was not familiar with the Highland Maconlea Livingstones and the stories regarding them. THere is much debate on the antiquity and significance of the tartan, but regardless the British government clearly saw