Roll Call

[Jerry]

Edith, It is fascinating how people around the globe knew the fate of our 2nd great grandfathers prior to us finding this forum.

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Edith, Quite right about the Mathesons. I just going to say that the Mathesons were Red River Settlers themselves. I have seen that name in the records. REgarding the original Livingstones that first arrived in 1812, the Hudsons Bay Company people did not understand the Kenevy's settler list from the Fall of 1812. It actually stated that Miles was accompanied by Donald Livingstone Jr. These were skilled boat builders in their late 30's early 40's. The other Donald Livingstone recorded in the list married to Ann MacGilvarie was not the father of the above mentioned Donald Livingstone Jr. but actually a young man himself from another Livingstone family. Your Uncle a son of Neil Livingstone of the Isle of Islay born abt. 1791. He was the one who wrote to his father and brothers in 1818 about coming to the REd River settlement. There was another Livingstone accompanying Donald LIvingstone Jr. (Miles older brother I believe) and Miles. His name was Jessie Livingstone and I have not figured out exactly what happened to him after he arrived in 1812. He sort of just disappeared. regards, Donald

[edith]

Yes, The Lord Selkirk Association's book on history and genealogy thinks that Donald Jr. and Jess were Donald's children, but that didn't seem right as he was too young to have had two children by then, The passenger list printed in their book doesn't say how old any of the Livingstones were nor where they came from, but all census records until the 1856 State of Iowa census calculate to a birth date of around 1791. Then he suddenly aged ten years in five! Whatever it was that made him feel ten years older wasn't fatal, because he lived another 20 years, though that extra five years in age continued to be reported right up to his gravestone. Someone who is descended from Flora Livingstone, Donald and the others' sister (who stayed in the Red River Settlement) and who has done some research on the subject says the original passenger list was lost and what we have now was a recontruction. There are some errors on it (that's the 1812 list I'm talking about), such as Ann McGilvray is listed twice, both with her parents and siblings and with Donald Livingstone, and Miles's wife Janet is not mentioned. That's unfortunate, because the passenger lists give wives' maiden names, but we don't have her name. Flora's descendant also said maybe Donald shaved five years off his age when he emigrated from Scotland "for reasons of his own" and then went back to his right age later in life. I don't know why he would want to seem younger than he was. He was pretty young in any case.

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Edith, Yes indeed anyone who noticed that Donald Livingstone was a young man who Ann MacGilvary shortly after their arrival in 1812 at York Factory, would realize that Donald born abt. 1791 was just married upon arrival and good not possibly be the father Donald Livingstone JR. and Jessie. No there are clearly two Livingstone families probably cousins, but two family groups. The proper understanding of the Livingstons on the Kenevy List of 1812 is that you have two experienced boatbuilders/carpenters Miles Livingstone and his brother Donald Livingstone JR. accompanying them was Jessie Livingstone possibly a young man related to them. Then you have traveling with them Donald Livingston born about 1791 who we know from letters and other records to have been the son of Neil Livingstone of the Isle of Islay. Recorded on this list with this Donald in his early twenties his brand new bride of

[edith]

I found the list of the persons who left the settlement in 1815 in George Bryce's books. You probably know he was a minister who began serving the community about 1871 and wrote lots of things on the settlement. This link is for The Scotman in Canada (1911). It's also in The Romantic Settlement of Lord Selkirk's Colonists (the Pioneers of Manitoba) (1909). I don't know if that book is online, I haven't looked for it. I don't know if he got the list from HBC or NW Co. Look at http://www.electricscotland.com/history ... menndx.htm and select volume 2, chapter 15. His list "D" he says was prepared by Wm. McGillivray, who I think worked for HBC, but I may be wrong about that. He also says it's imcomplete, maybe listing only about half the persons who left the settlement. It's in PDF format and I waited a long time for it to load. This comment came from The Romantic Settlement: Young people capable of labor generally employed between York [now Toronto?] and Newmarket. The old people are stationed at Newmarket for the present. Some of the settlers who have gone to Montreal not included. Miles and his family are on the list. The John Matheson, wife and child were, I think, my ancestor Angus's uncle and his family. I do not know who the John Matheson Jr. and wife were. The McGilvray parents and siblings are not on the list. I know Catherine (by then married to John Pritchard) and Ann stayed in the settlement but I do not know what happened to the rest of them. I was interested to see that Miles MacDonnell performed christenings. I wonder if he performed weddings, too. I don't think they had even an Anglican clergyman that early, although maybe there was one at York Factory. I won't be able to get back to the computer until Saturday so if you need to look something up, to see who William McGillivray was, for instance, you don't need to be in a hurry about it on my account. If you know he was from NW Co., then I guess you already know about this list. But if he was from HBC, then I hope maybe it helps a little. Edith

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Edith, I have that list of settlers that arrived at the Holland Landing along with William MacGillverary's long winded letter to Upper Canada Government officials villifying his enemy Lord Selkirk and portraying himself as being sympathetic to the plight of the Selkirk settlers. In fact the settlers that arrived at the Holland Landing endured a hellish 1000 mile canoe trip across Canada from Red RIver with many portages not to mention hungry black flies and misquitoes. Miles Livingstone and the other 140 settlers were compelled to leave the settlement in June of 1815. A group of other settlers about 60 fled soon after, but remained in Hudsons Bay Territory, while their REd River settlement buildings including Miles MacDonnell's house and Miles Livingstone's house were burned to the ground. I must get to Winnipeg one of these days to access both the Hudsons Bay COmpany records and Lord Selkirk 20 reels of papers. I am familiar with most of what is there from books and from contact with researchers, but I would like to take a look and see if there is any thing that might have been missed regarding the Livingstone Settlers at Red River. Alot of interesting stuff survived including a request by Miles Livingston for tobacco. regards Donald (Livingstone) Clink

[Bryan Livingston]

Hi Ian, Its a long shot, but my family descent from the Aberdeen Livingston's and while I know they are common names in our family both Alexander and Elizabeth feature extremely often. The earliest I can give you at this stage is an Alexander Livingston b abt 1787 and d 2 June 1856 in Newhills Abderdeen.

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Edith, Regarding Owen Kenevy's 1812 list of those departing for Red River from York Factory, I disagree with the earlier intrepretation of some Hudson Bay Company historians regarding the Livingstons and this would be my understanding of it.

[Edith Matheson]

Donald, I've concluded that the passenger lists are like any other census, full of errors and, in this case, misinterpretations. And we don't even have the names of the persons who wrote the passenger lists, like we have the names of the census enumerators. (At least I don't think we do.) Edith

[edith]

Donald, I've concluded that the passenger lists are like any other census, full of errors and, in this case, misinterpretations. And we don't even have the names of the persons who wrote the passenger lists, like we have the names of the census enumerators. (At least I don't think we do.) Edith