Hello everyone, just starting a thread because the forum seems slow today I am looking to get some ideas/information on the differences of a Clan and a Sept. Or is it comparing Apples and Oranges? From the little reading I have done it seems that a Clan is a large family recognized as their own individual Title where a Sept is a smaller family that needs protection or has married into a larger Clan. Is this a correct assumption? If so it is a "Once a Sept, Always a Sept" or once a clan gets it's own status would they be removed from being a Sept of another? I see the McLea/Livingstone family as a Sept of another Clan and I feel that it weakens us because there are Livingstone or McLea's out there that go as a Sept of another instead of knowing that there was an offical recognition of this Clan. So what does it really mean to be a Sept of another clan? Just a thought to stir conversations. David
David Wyse Livingston
Tucson, Arizona, United States
As I understand it, and this may be wrong, the Sept was nothing other than construct we in the modern world have used to describe the myriad Scottish families in olden times who didn't exert a lot of power in the world and relied on a nearby Clan for protection/etc.
Further thoughts to help explain. The Highland Livingstones have been described by some sources as a recognized sept of Clan MacDougall and Clan Stewart of Appin, and Clan Campbell.
The Baron of Bachuil, Coarb of St Moluag
Chief of MacLea
Hi David, Almost all the Clan Tartan books you will find in your neighbourhood bookstore or library refer to the Highland Livingstones as septs of the Appin Stewarts. This unfortunately ignores our very ancient clan status in the highlands and suggests that we were somewhat subordinate or inferior to the Stewarts of Appin. As Niall has mentioned we forged alliances with the Macdougalls and Stewarts of Appin to protect our vested interests in our district and because of marriage ties, but were never septs of these clans. Were closely associated with our friends Clan MacDougall for a number of centuries and particpated in a number of battles with them. However in 1745, Clan Macdougall did choose to rise up with Bonnie Prince Charlie and the Maconleas ended up serving with their friends the APpin Stewarts at the Battle of Culloden. While the power hungry Campbells dominated the region and confiscated most our land,became our landlords, forced their Presbyterian faith upon their tenants, they could not humiliate the Barons of Bachuil or make our people subordinate or a sept of their clan. (I say this while all the time suspecting that Miles Livingstone's mother was a Campbell.) I leave the explanation of what a sept actually is understood to be to the Young Bachuil who has delved greatly into this whole matter of the Livingstones as a sept in the past. regards Donald
I am looking to get some ideas/information on the differences of a Clan and a Sept. Or is it comparing Apples and Oranges? From the little reading I have done it seems that a Clan is a large family recognized as their own individual Title where a Sept is a smaller family that needs protection or has married into a larger Clan. Is this a correct assumption? If so it is a "Once a Sept, Always a Sept" or once a clan gets it's own status would they be removed from being a Sept of another? I see the McLea/Livingstone family as a Sept of another Clan and I feel that it weakens us because there are Livingstone or McLea's out there that go as a Sept of another instead of knowing that there was an offical recognition of this Clan. So what does it really mean to be a Sept of another clan? Just a thought to stir conversations. 