Baile Dhun Liebhe

[Canadian Livingstone]

One cannot be too curious about the origins of the Town of Livingston in West Lothian, Scotland being referred to in gaelic as Baile Dhun Liebhe. As has been pointed out by others forum participants in the past the gaelic name for the town of Livingston is very interesting given the fact that our ancient clan name was Mac Dhunliebhe and in the end became Livingstone. Although my knowledge of gaelic is basically non-existent, I was able to ascertain that gaels might have at one time referred to the town of Livingston at the time of our Maconleas as Baile Dhun or Dun Leving or something in English like Fortified Town of Leving. I realize others have their own theories about this, but I still stuggling with the LEving and Leibhe connection. Another town with fortifications, Edinburgh has a gaelic name of Baile dhun Eideann I believe. Dhun or Dun I understand to mean a fortification or something like that and Baile of course means town. Presumingly the town of Livingston comes from the older Levingtoun with toun or ton derived from old English or Old Scots understood to mean a fortified town. Oddly enough I managed to discover some comments regarding the use of the gaelic Baile Dhun Liebhe to refer to the Town of Livingston on the Scottish Parliament Website. "Livingston (West Lothian) Baile Leibhinn or Baile Dhunleibhe "Levings's Village" The gaelic name is common but eroneous as it based on the surname MacDhunleibhe Livingston which is unconnected to the name of the town." But as my father pointed out to me does it matter now or did it matter in the 1750's to Baron Maconlea that the one is not or may not be a perferct equivalent to the other. From the 1743 manuscript comes tangible evidence that the lowland Earl of Linlithgo about 100 years before the name change believed that his family decended from the MacDhunliebhes and it it is too far a stretch to believe that a tradition had developed whether a perfect direct translation or not that Dhunliebhe or Livingston were not only same ancient family but "more or less" the eqivalent names in their respective langquages. Interestly the above mentioned source speaks of gaelic name for the town as being "common". Before passing judgement in one direction or another I would like to know what history there is in the use of the gaelic Bael Dhunliebhe to describe the town. I am wondering if there are any surviving documents from the 18th century around the time of the Maconlea name change referring to the town of Livingston as Bael Dhunliebhe. That would be most interesting to me. regards Donald (Livingstone) Clink

[Kyle2 MacLea]

Don't know much about it, Donald, but I will have a look around.

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Kyle, The spoken language at the time the soldier Malcolm McLea in the 1640's arrived at the Linlithgo of the LOwland Livingstones Earls was Scots and had been for some time. Some of the aristocrats might have had some knowledge of gaelic which would prove usefull for any neccessary contacts they might have with highlanders. Certainly a gaelic translation or eqivalent of the town of Livingston would not be generally commonly known by the local population I would suspect in the 1600's. It can be suspected however that the Livingston aristocrats in the Lowlands in the 1600's and early 1700's and their Maconlea counterparts in the highlands were somewhat fluent in both languages and familiar with whatever history and connections the two families and their names had. I think it is not too unreasonable to intrepret that from the 1743 MacLea Manuscript. regards Donald (Livingstone) Clink

[Kyle2 MacLea]

Indeed quite possible!

[Andrew Lancaster4]

Good work. Just a side remark. The area of Livingston was Welsh (or similar) speaking before it was English speaking, and I think that the word Dun was a typical word in that language (often borrowed into Gaelic and English) used a bit like burg in germanic languages, to represent originally a hill, but by extension a fenced off colony, which is what I presume that that the Villa of Livingus was. I think there was a period when Gaelic was one among several inter-communal language used not only around Edinborough and Livingston, but maybe as far south as Cumbria sometimes for example, (not by locals speaking to locals though) but this was only a couple of centuries, which would have been coming to an end in the time of Livingus. Regards Andrew

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Andrew, I was thinking this afternoon while waiting for a bus that perhaps it is not all that important whether or not the Earl of Linlithgo or the local folk in the Linlithgo or Livingston area of the lowlands knew what the gaelic was for Livingston, most importantly a highland Maclea visiting their lowland Livingston friends in the 1600's would speak of this town or Edinburgh for example in the gaelic language. So that a century later when I presume the name change occurred among most clan members by Baron Duncan Maconlea he was well aware that it was known by his people who travelled in the lowlands for a very long time as "Baile Dhunliebhe. I often us a Scottish gazetteer from the early 1800's I wonder if it has the gaelic for the town of Livingston. If only I could find an older gazetteer from the 1600's or 1700's or any old book that from that period that referred to the town of Livingston as Baile Dunliebhe. The point I am making is that even if all the Baron wanted was to change his name to an english sounding equivalent he would not have to thought very hard if the common name in Gaelic in the 1600's and 1700's was to be sure Baile Dunliebhe for Livingston TOwn. I quoted that comment from the Parliament source because for my own peace of mind I would like to find out whether or not this gentleman is correct to suggest that Baile Dhunliebhe is not an accurate gaelic name for the town of Livingston. And of course I also would like some research done to see if any old documents can be locatead refering to the town as Baile Dhunliebhe. Perhaps not an easy task I suspect. Well locating it even in one the early 19th century gazeteers would be a start. I have to check out the First Edition RObert Bain Tartan book so I will see what I can find out from the library here. ANd I willing to bet that David's contact at the National Library of Scotland might be a big help as to locating and old reference to the town of Livingston as Baile Dhunliebhe. Wont be the same as finding a history of our name change, but we forget finding that. WE may however be able to determine that proper or inproper gaelic Baile Dhunliebhe was used by highland clans and to refer to the town of Livingston for some time. We shall see what can be found. regards Donald

[Canadian Livingstone]

HI ANdrew, Dhun or DUn a gaelic word I think was understood by our old clan folk to mean a fortified place in early times in Scotland that meant a hill which was often a fortified place for where there was a fortification. IN Scotland the first place I think of was Baile Dhun Eideen or something like that which is Edinburgh but remember Baron De Leving or his sons built a fortified castle no long gone and later a town was established which became Levingtoun later Livingston in the common language of those who spoke some form of Scots or English in the lowlands.

[Kyle2 MacLea]

Indeed, Google Books searches for Baile Dhun find only Baile Dhun Eideen... K=

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Kyle, As Socrates once put it "I know that I do not know." But there are a number of people out there with far greater knowledge and experience with gaelic language and history in Scotland than us and perhaps we can draw upon their expertise to determine what the story is about Livingston and Baile Dunliebhe and what they make of it all. A group of Universities in Scotland is involved together in a major Gaelic history project at the moment and I hoping to contact them regarding our Baile Dunliebhe question and hopefully get some feedback from them if possible. regards Donald

[Kyle2 MacLea]

That is a great idea, Donald!