Nova Scotia/PEI Livingstone Research

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Barry,
Certainly Alexander shows up in that early census in the right place it would seem, however if there is information that Alexander`s wife was not a Sarah or Sally then that does change things a bit.
If I have got it right Alexander was located in the early 1800's on Lot 54 and Joseph received land from Sally or Sarah Livingston a widower that was located on Lot 54. Sally and Sarah are the same name according to the name experts.There is no document stating that widower Sally or Sarah Livingston was the wife of John Livingston of Georgetown I take it so she could have been Alexander`s widow. All we know about John Livingston is that there were a few vwry early land transactions around the Georgetown area including one between John Livingston and John Cameron in 1806. I think John was at Lot 53 in the Georgetown area but Lot 54 is also in St. Georges Parish and must be close by.

HI Roberta,

Barry's ancestor Colin Livingston if his 1867 PEI obituary info is correct was originally from Whycocomagh, Inverness County, Cape Breton and if so he was connected to the Whycocomagh and Mull River Livingstons we have been discussing in earlier forum posting on the old forum. As his family must of been the source of this obituary info regarding his Whycocomagh Cape Breton origins I think it should be accurate.These Livingstons and others in the area were originally from Mull hence Mull River. The obituary gave Barry the essential lead that Colin was connected to the Whycocomagh/Mull RIver Cape Breton Livingstons but also brought to llight the fact that Colin owned some land in the LOt 55 area of PEI. He found a later land record showing that Colin's widow was transferring the deed to the land in the Forest Hill area of Lot 55, Kings COunty, PEI to his son Angus if I understand correctly. Dr. St. Clair does not have info on Colin of Whycocomagh for simple fact that he was not apparently located in the Census records in Cape Breton and I am not certain that he is recorded in Whycocomagh in the 1861 Census though one source has suggested to us that there is a Colleen Livingston listed there or something like that. I am hoping that Jewel can check there information on a Colleen Livingston of WHycocomagh now that she has joined a Cape Breton Historical Society and has access to their information. For my part I am hoping to get more info on land distribution in the Forest Hill area in the 1800's today.

regards,

Donald

[Roberta Ann]

Hi Barry;

No, Barry they were printed at that time , however these are maps of much earlier time. After all, most of these people on the maps were dead by the time these were put on-line.

Regards;

Roberta

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hello Barry,

I spoke with a gentleman from the PEI Archives regarding the Colin Livingston research project and the challenges that had been experienced regarding locating the earlier land transaction between Colin and the grantor of that piece of property around Forest Hill, Lot 55, PEI. He said the locating this document is complicated and not at all easy but that there still is a good chance that a document relating to Colin Livingston's original transaction could be in the archives. He suggested you return to the archives, talk to them and give it another try. He mentioned many of sources you probably have already checked for your family land transactions including the lease index, index to government deeds, Wills index as they sometimes contain deed transfers to family members and the conveyances index. There may be some other avenues of research they can suggest and they are willing to help you. It it too bad land transactions arent indexed by location within Lot 55. Tracing original grants and land ownership in Ontario if much simpler.

In regards to Forest Hill and Lot 55 in general he said that prior to 1855 farmers located there would have tenants leasing the land absentee landlords in Great Britain. After that sometime, the government of PEI took control of land distribution and tenants starting to buy up their leased properties if I understood him correctly. I dont know the exact scenario for Colin as we presume he was living at Whycocomagh prior to 1861 but as I told him we arent 100% certain of all the details regarding Colins location during this period just that he appears to have purchased some land around Forest Hill in Lot 55 some years prior to his death in 1867. So it is not likely he owned or occupied this land before 1855 unless he was leasing it as a tenant which I assume he was not. ANother reason why it would be nice if we could prove he was living at Whycocomagh in 1861 as then we might be able determine that he acquired the property between 1861 and 1867 which might be one scenario. It is just unfortunate that we are finding it difficult to determine whether Colin was in that census or not, but as I mentioned Jewel may be able find out something about this Colleen Livingston of Whycocomagh entry from the Cape Breton Historical Society which she recently joined.

I am still curious about the actual specifics about how land in the area was being sold at the time Colin acquired ownership of this piece of property as it may to help to locate the original land transaction document we are looking for. One thing we now know for certain is that his purchase had to occur after 1855 so it would seem we are looking for a deed or some such land document indicating change of ownership dated sometime between 1855 and 1867 so it could of happened as late as the 1860's. Ask them to start if they are having difficulty to figure out who first owned his property after 1855. I was also curious when the lots in the Forest Hill were distributed to tenants or later sold what identification system did they use. There may some lot terminology with specific location information connected to Colin's property at Forest Hill that might make it easier determing a history of who was on Colins property before Colin and who passed it on to Colin and when. It the simplest methods of locating this document such as the alphabetical indexes wont work suggest they try alternative means to locate the document by establishing some sort of property history prior to 1867.

regards,

Donald

[Livingstone_PEI]

Hi Roberta and Donald

All my research is showing that Colin would have been the original owner of this property. I spoke with the land records office today and the person that usually does research is on vacation at the moment. The person I talked to said he would be my best resource and it would save alot of time to wait until he returns. He is back to work on the 23rd of this month. I will be paying them a visit. The person I spoke with said the archives should have the same miicrofilms as they do and she said they should be better than their's. I will try at the land registry office though because they should be more specialized in finding land records I would think.

The settlement of Dundas only dates back to 1840 and Forest Hill is even a little more remote than Dundas is. Before this land was unoccupied and was available for settlment by anyone that wanted it. My mother even remembers land between Forest Hill and her home that was not owned by anyone and farmers in the area used to pasture their cattle there in the summer, because no one owned it and no one said anything if you used it. I guess it was crown land. If you do a search for "History of Presbyterianism on Prince Edward Island" in Google books, you will find a section for Dundas. It gives a pretty good representation of the area at the time. Dundas even today is a small community and at the moment they don't even have a local store anymore. Forest Hill and other rural communities have suffered from families moving to more urban settings and actually the communities in rural PEI were more populated 100 years ago than they are now. The destruction of century old homes and the families of these homes, has led to community histories being lost forever. It is a real shame.

I went to the local Rememberance day ceremony at St. John's Presbyterian Church and the bagpipers took part in the procession. For those of you that don't get to hear the bagpipes very often, there are still quite a few pipers in the community and we have one of the few marching bands, albeit a small band, left on PEI. It's not uncommon to hear them in the summer at the local provincial park.

Barry

[Livingstone_PEI]

Hi Donald

Here is another book in Google books I just found. It seems the ownership of Land on PEI in the 1800's was always a hot topic.

"Rural protest on Prince Edward Island"

I have not read the book, but just skimmed it.

Barry

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Barry,
Normally I dont have too much trouble finding archival material if it there, but I think due to these complexities I would consider hiring someone with PEI land records expertise to help you with this. Some of these experts are often more experienced in finding records than archival personel you sometimes find because they are constantly retrieving County records and well acquainted with the records. Just a possible option.
You could hire someone in PEI who is familiar with the complexies of early land ownership in Lot 55 to do a search at the land registry office. I am wondering if you could do a complete history of ownership on that lot and come up some documentation mentioning Colin. Worth a try perhaps.The PEI archives expert however may be able to find similar info. My discussions with one of them today gave me some optimism that you may eventually be able to locate this earlier document which I have been speculating exists somewhere on microfilm or in some dusty, moth eaten file in some ancient cabinet. Lets keep hope alive until the archives expert gets back.

regards,

Donald

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Barry,

Yes I would imagine there are some fine pipers in PEI given there are so many descendants of highland natives residing there. Atlantic Canada is rich in great folk music of all sorts. I have heard rumours that the folk group the Rankins have some Livingston blood but I cant confirm that has yet. I should ask Roberta about that. Her family is from Nova Scotia. I have found PEI books I think it was has some interesting titles of interest to PEI researchers and think there another PEI based Genealogy site with Books. With a such rich history as PEI has it is no wonder.

regards,

Donald

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Barry,

The main thing I got from my conversation with a staff member of the PEI archives was that the land around Forest Hill, Lot 55, Kings County was not available for local ownership until sometime after 1855. Prior to that it seems that is was owned by landlords in Great Britain. So it seems to be reasonable to assume that the original purchase by Colin took place sometime between 1855 and 1867. So when you go to the archives that might narrow things down once you get a better sense of what happened with that particular parcel of land that Colin acquired before he diedin 1867. Somewhere there will be some info on the pre 1855 absentee landlord ownership and tenants in the Forest Hill and then you can figure with the PEI staff of moving forward in the records after that until Colin or his property surfaces in the records hopefully.
regards,

Donald

[Livingstone_PEI]

Hi All

I sent an email to the NS email address to see what time period the maps on the NS government website are from. Here is the response. I have replied to her email to see if there is an original copy of these maps.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Dear Mr. Judson:

In response to your question, the Crown Land Index maps were compiled in the late 1930's to mid 1940's. They were copied from an earlier series of maps called the Jackson Sheets which were used to map Crown Land Grants. The Crown Land Index Sheets show the original Crown Land Grants and are updated on a daily basis, to map Crown Land Acquisitions, Disposals, Encumbrances, New Land Grants etc for the Dept. of Natural Resources. The images online were last scanned in 2006.

I hope I was able to answer your question. Please let me know if you require further assistance.


Stacey Walsh,
Secretary
Crown Land Information Management Centre

[Roberta Ann]

Hi Barry;

Just as I thought "Land Index Maps" that have been recorded, based upon the original Crown Land Grants. Thanks, Barry, for confirming same.

I saw names of families who are in the area of my 4th and 3rd. great grandfathers property and who were married within our Livingstone family. John Livingstone Sr., b.c.1784 - 1859, settled; with his wife Christy McPhee, on Low Point in 1806. John Livingstone Jr. was born June 7, 1807 - 1900, John Jr. married Ann McGillivray in 1827.

Regards;

Roberta