Randomly Acquired Information

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi Kyle,

That being said the more Western Argyll Livingstones/Livingston descendants tested the more near matches and possible matches we will encounter a trend in terms of location for particular group of highland livingstones/Livingstons that give us a better sense of where they lived at least in the 1700's and 1800's. Nothing should be assumed as 100% certain but if a highland Livington family can be found in parish records and census records in Western Argyll at that time then we can at least comfortable say that this family lived at such a place at such a time which is something. As the parish records in Western Argyllshire do not exist any earlier than the 1750's we are somewhat limited in just how far back our Livingston families can be traced. In the case of my great-great-great grandfather Miles Livingston b.1775 in Morvern Parish, I only know of his Morvern birth place from his marriage record which oddly enough included his place of birth not too common in Argyllshire marriage records. The minister apparently was keen to sort which married couples were of the Parish of Kilarrow and which were outsiders such as Miles and his wife Janette. But as far as Morvern parish records goe the surviving baptismal and marriage records do begin before the early 1800's which is pretty much useless for locating Miles 1775 baptism or tracing who his parents were. There is interestingly a Miles Livingston born to Donald Livingston and Christian Campbell around 1775 and baptised in 1775 on the Isle of Lismore which the late Baron Alastair Livingstone suggested years ago could our Miles Livingston but I cant unfortunately be certain of that. It is conceivable I suppose that Miles incorrectly understood he was born in Morvern Parish when in fact he born across Loch Linhe in the neighbouring parish of Lismore. I have wondered about that. To be sure we dont remember where we are born are parents generally tell us and I suppose they could get the information mixed up. I am sure it happens.

regards,

Donald

regards,

Donald

[Kyle MacLea]

Yes. The more people we test as well, the more exactly we may be able to pinpoint likely locales WITHIN this important cluster of Highland Livingstones. That is always a possibility, and one reason we may someday push the "Advanced" Markers even more.

Kyle=

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi John,

What I find interesting regarding ANgus Livingston b.ab.t 1781 Army pensioner is that one of the Mull baptismal records from Siaba actually Shiaba, Kilfinchen Parish for his youngest daughter Jane baptised January 18, 1829 records Angus indeed as a pensioner with his wife Margaret Hall. We also see in the 1841 Census at Urigaig, Jura ANgus Livingston Army Pensioner with his wife Margaret born abt. 1886 and his youngest children James, Ann and Jean who at age 11 in the 1841 is obviously Jane born about 1829. I have seen this Jane and Jean name thing before with Scottish relatives in Canada. So little doubt this is the same ANgus and that he is was at Mull in the early 1800's. His earlier time at Glasgow around 1802 was apparently as a Cotton spinner working in a mill and much as Dr. Livngston's family Angus must have ventured from Mull in the late 1700's perhaps looking for work in the Lanarkshire mills.
I dont know the history of ANgus in Mull beyond Shiaba, Mull which is in Southern Mull. Dr. Livingstone's people lived in the more Northernly part in KIlninian Parish at Lettermore and later on at the Isle of Ulva.
regards,

Donald

[jmlivingstone]

Donald/Kyle,

Greenock is a relatively small town, probably around 60,000 population, there are probably around three or four Livingstone families, none of whom appear to be related, although most apppear to originate from Mull.

I do not think anyone else from the area is involved on this site, but I will see if I can contact any of these families when I'm home, might manage to get someone interested.

PS. If you think finding Livingstones is frustrating, try finding McGuigans from Antrim, that is really hard work, there are thousands of them.

Just as a matter of interest, until around 1970, Greenock was one of the major ports of departure from the UK for Canadian Pacific ships carrying emigrants to Canada.

I also noticed on a couple of Scottish census forms, that the wife of Angus, Margaret Hall is listed as born ''in foreign parts'', could this mean there could be a record of her birth somewhere in old British military records?

The thing that really intrigues me, after the 1841 census, when both Angus & Margaret would have been in their 60's, they disappear off the face of the earth, last probable residence Jura.

Where did they go, possibly they were enroute Islay, where some of the family were living by 1841, although there is no record of Angus or Margaret ever being on Islay.


John

[jmlivingstone]

Donald/Kyle,

I really regret not listening to stories told by my fathers uncles from Islay, in the 50's, when I was a kid, they were probably in their late 70's. What a lot of info they could have supplied about the family,

John

[Kyle MacLea]

John,

Would love to hear from any other Livingstones you wrangle up!

The destination of Angus and Margaret is just something you'll have to keep checking in new sources as they become available. A pity is that from that time there are precious few records for people who had no reason to run into the law and legal situations. So, a lot of people are just mysterious. Heck, even my relatives in Glasgow. I can find census reports, addresses, occupations, births/marriages (and some) deaths. But finding out much more than that, even for 1851-1881, seems difficult. 1841 era seems a relative nightmare. I am with you. My ancestor John died sometime in the 1830s, but I will probably never know when, where, or how.

And I think we all wish we had paid better attention to tales of the our ancestors and their siblings, cousins, etc. I know I do!

Kyle=

[jmlivingstone]

Hi Donald,

I've just had a look at the latest info released by findmypast.co.uk, still nothing on the illusive Angus, I did get info on another two Angus Livingstones, both from Glasgow area, one of them died around 1955.

I've got copies of the info, unfortunately, I'm not on my own computer at the moment, so I cannot post this at present,

John

[Canadian Livingstone]

Hi John,
You should also be aware that not only Angus and Margaret but as far as can tell all of his family members that were living with them at Jura have left Jura before the next census of 1851. I took the liberty of checking this out from 1851 census records for Jura. So what happened
Angus and Mary as far as I can tell were not recorded in the subsequent 1851 Census in Scotland.
It may be that both Angus and Margaret died before the next British Census of 1851, but the other possibility is that Angus and Margaret in their advanced age ended up immigrating to Australia with their children and perhaps sometimes shortly after died in Australia with no further info on them surviving. There is no evidence so far of them immigrating to Canada and your Angus is not the Angus that lived at Boulderie, Bras dòr Cape Breton born in 1773 in highland Scotland who his according to his land petitions served on his the HMS ROyal George as a sailor during the Napoleonic War not a soldier as in the case of the ANgus that was born abt. 1781 married to Margaret Hall. The baptismal records of their children refer to her as Margaret Hall so I am sticking with that to prevent confusion. So I think Australia is one possibility given that it was a popûlar destination in the 1840`s and the fact that there seems to be a possible Australian connection to this family. Just because we cant find detailed records doesnt mean that Angus and Margaret did not go to Australia. Just a possibility however.

There were many Angus Livingstons of highland origin to be sure that lived both in highlands and lowlands later on. AMong our clansmen, Donald, Niall, Angus and Hugh or Ewen were common. According to the relatives of Donald Livingstone (1728-1816) of Battle of Culloden fame, he had at least two brothers Angus who was killed at Culloden in 1746 and another brother Hugh or Ewen whom Argyll census records of 1779 seem to indicate lived in close proximity to him at Savary, Morvern years after the last Jacobite Rebellion. Old Donald of Savary Movern seemed to have prospered after the 1745 Rebellion and that may be how he could afford to erect such an impressive and elaborate table tomb for his parents in 1760 at Keil Cemetery near LOchaline, Morvern. It would after he came out of hiding in the hills and caves of Morvern after the Rebellion he became a drover and sold cattle and provisions to the British garrisons. Given that Morvern had good grazing land and a long history of raising cattle, it is not surprising that old Donald would have some previous experience as a cattle drover. Later it is also known that he and his family ran a corn meal mill along the banks of the Savary River at Savary, Morvern and in his final years operated an Inn at Savary. So all indications are that he was far from having been an impoverished tenant of the Dukes of Argyll.

If we do eventually find your Angus Livingston in the military records it might mention the name of his wife but I am sure it would give us too much info on her, mostly on Angus if anyone. I guess we shall see if we are lucky enough to find him. If all else fails you could find an experienced researcher with British military Archives records in England to try and locate information on ANgus Livingston.

regards,

Donald

[jmlivingstone]

Hi Donald,

Of the family members of Angus & Margaret who were on Jura in 1841, I have the following info, or in some cases, lack of info;

James - no info.

Jean or Jane - again no info.

Ann - died 1860, Govan Poorhouse, Glasgow, her normal residence is listed as Orchard Road, Govan, her married name was McPhail. Her husband was a boat builders labourer, not sure where he was when she died, as her brother Hugh signed the death certificate.

Hugh - still in Glasgow 1861, resident 22, James Street, Calton, Glasgow, disappeared after this date, possibly to Canada.

In addition, Angus/Margarets son & daughter-in-law John & Agnes were resident Jura 1842, their son Neil was born on Jura, he is registered at Colonsay,
they moved to Islay somewhere around this time.

John

[Canadian Livingstone]

HI John,

I would assume that your ancestor Angus Livingston and his wife Margaret Hall lived at Kilpatrick and later Shiaba both in South Western Mull and just a short distance from one another. I noticed that your earlier researcher checked the parish records located in Southern Mull for Angus Livingston and Margaret Hall's childrens baptisms and located some. I was wondering about that earlier Glasgow baptism from 1802 where it states Angus Livingston and Mary Hall being the parents. Perhaps that is an error given that the name should have been Margaret I guess. I suspected that they may have been married in either Mull or Glasgow but have not found their marriage record.

regards,

Donald